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$5.50 2R1A 88 in 3Bet Pot on Shallow Stacks

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$5.50 2R1A 88 in 3Bet Pot on Shallow Stacks - Tue Aug 26, 2014, 04:22 PM
(#1)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496


We're in the last 30-40 players and well into the money already.

I'm not using a HUD when playing tournaments so I can't give precise numbers. However my opponent has no notable tournament results and he's been fairly aggressive from late position but not been too out of line.

I chose to 3Bet preflop as I think we're too shallow to setmine and both blinds were strong regs who'd seize on any chance to resteal if they could, which I didn't really want to face!

On the flop I wished I'd CBet a bit bigger but this is a pretty safe flop for 88 and my plan was to try get all in either on the flop or on safe turns. The small CBet allows him to float with a bunch of worse stuff and might even induce him to bluff-raise me sometimes.

On the turn of course the flush comes in but I'm not so worried about him holding this and I still think I'll have the best hand a large percentage of the time.

However what should my play be now?
 
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Tue Aug 26, 2014, 07:19 PM
(#2)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I think you should move all-in here, as if he has a Ten he would re-raise you on the flop on this wet board. But I don't know why you 3-bet that small I like to make it 2.8x to 28000. So on the flop pot would be 66,500 and you can bet 29,500. And move all-in on the turn.

Now even if you choose to make small 3-bet on the flop I will c-bet like 23500 in your case.

As of now I think on the turn if you check you can face a huge bet on the river esp. if any scare card to your 88's come like A K J.

If he had 99's he would 4-bet you pre, if he is a good player. Rest AT KT would check raise all-in on the flop. I think you need to trust your read and shove on the turn.

The point that you said of beting small can induce check-raise as players take it as weakness most of the time but I can tell you passive players will not c/r with air coz the stacks are too shallow for them to try any move. Any move they make if it goes wrong will cripple them or might even bust them, so the chances of them making fancy move this shallow is nil if they have air.

And if he has some draw or any piece of the board he will check jam to any c-bet size that you choose to make.
 
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Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:08 PM
(#3)
jokr02's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 82
i dont mind check fold we will still be left with 21 bb and if we think he doesnot hav a flush draw we still check shove the river
 
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Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:58 AM
(#4)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
But I don't know why you 3-bet that small I like to make it 2.8x to 28000. So on the flop pot would be 66,500 and you can bet 29,500. And move all-in on the turn.
This is the 3Bet size I had been using fairly regularly at this table - it gets a lot of folds and when I have to 3Bet/fold it is much cheaper. If people want to call Out of Position because they think they're getting good pot odds, good luck to them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jokr02 View Post
i dont mind check fold we will still be left with 21 bb and if we think he doesnot hav a flush draw we still check shove the river
We're in position. Villain checked to us on the turn so it's up to us whether we want to bet the turn and how we should react on different rivers if villain bets or not.
 
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Wed Aug 27, 2014, 10:59 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi Andy,

Interesting hand!

We start with 32bb's, are well into the money but not near the final table yet so pay jump considerations are nil at this point.

V2 opens the cut off on a 29.5bb stack. He has been fairly aggressive from late position but not too out of line. The fact that he appears to have no notable mtt results is relevant I think, it may indicate he's not a strong player, and thus be less likely to realize that V5 is in a great 3B shove spot with his stack. Which if he did realize, might tighten his range some.

So ultimately I think we have 2 valid options here. The one you didn't choose, flat calling in position. This is not just a pure set mine. For example the exact flop we got is one I would not be folding to a c-bet. We have enough depth of money and the positional advantage, to win the pot without making a set sometimes, and we exercise some measure of stack protection when things don't go in our favor, allowing us to retain probably 25+bb's to move forward with. If the BB were to squeeze, I would call off to him if V2 folds, and fold if V2 reshoves or flats. Fold to a squeeze from V4 unless the sizing is crazy small.

The other option is to 3-bet as you did. Sizing is good. This has the advantages of preventing "moves" behind us and punishing V2 for his late position transgressions. The downside is that we probably have too much hand to 3b/fold, and yet all the villains stack off ranges now will be much stronger in general than they might have been if we flat called or opened first in... while 88 doesn't play terrible in this spot, it's certainly a higher variance way to put our 32bb's in the middle.

I'm really ok with either course. With better reads on V2 I can be swayed one way or the other... if V2 doesn't double barrel much then I lean towards flatting. if he's going to go bombs away frequently, then I lean towards the 3b route.

As played, I c-bet this to about 22K, and move all in on the turn. This is card that shouldn't change our plan imo, especially since we hold the 8h... this both serves as a potential suck out card vs. better non-heart holdings, and an out reducer when he's got a single heart in his hand.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Wed Aug 27, 2014 at 12:12 PM.. Reason: twitter promo
 
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Thu Aug 28, 2014, 06:32 AM
(#6)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
V2 opens the cut off on a 29.5bb stack. He has been fairly aggressive from late position but not too out of line. The fact that he appears to have no notable mtt results is relevant I think, it may indicate he's not a strong player, and thus be less likely to realize that V5 is in a great 3B shove spot with his stack. Which if he did realize, might tighten his range some.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
So ultimately I think we have 2 valid options here. The one you didn't choose, flat calling in position. This is not just a pure set mine. For example the exact flop we got is one I would not be folding to a c-bet. We have enough depth of money and the positional advantage, to win the pot without making a set sometimes, and we exercise some measure of stack protection when things don't go in our favor, allowing us to retain probably 25+bb's to move forward with. If the BB were to squeeze, I would call off to him if V2 folds, and fold if V2 reshoves or flats. Fold to a squeeze from V4 unless the sizing is crazy small.
I examined this scenario quite a bit using HRC and came to the same conclusions you did. In game I was a bit unduly worried about getting squeezed which was probably a less scary propsect than I initially thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
The other option is to 3-bet as you did. Sizing is good. This has the advantages of preventing "moves" behind us and punishing V2 for his late position transgressions. The downside is that we probably have too much hand to 3b/fold, and yet all the villains stack off ranges now will be much stronger in general than they might have been if we flat called or opened first in... while 88 doesn't play terrible in this spot, it's certainly a higher variance way to put our 32bb's in the middle.
My intention was to 3Bet/fold, although now I can see why this isn't a great line to choose and probably in hindsight I prefer flatting preflop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
As played, I c-bet this to about 22K, and move all in on the turn. This is card that shouldn't change our plan imo, especially since we hold the 8h... this both serves as a potential suck out card vs. better non-heart holdings, and an out reducer when he's got a single heart in his hand.
This is what I did, for the reasons you stated. Fortunately he folded so no sweat or suckout was required!
 

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