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Knockout Tournies Shove Range

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Knockout Tournies Shove Range - Fri Aug 29, 2014, 05:25 PM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
  1. Do you think in KO tournies when we are short like 5-15 BB, shoving wider is bad idea ?
    Coz in KO tournies people call you more often then in normal games. So most of the time if you are going for the steal shove from LP like with T9s QTs, JT, etc you will get called by Ax K8+ Q8s+ very often.
    So should we be shoving tighter in KO then normal games as our fold equity is bit less?
  2. Also there is another valid argument to prove the first point wrong & why shoving wider can be good for example if you shove A8 coz of bounty, people will call you with worst like A4, A5, etc or if you shove KJo from UTG someone might call QJo for your bounty.
How do you think these both points balance themselves?

Like which one weighs more 1st point or 2nd point.

My experience says we should be bit tigher but not too tight. I am like 60-40 in favor of Point 1.

Last edited by adikumar2010; Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 06:05 PM..
 
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Fri Aug 29, 2014, 07:32 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,793
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My range is identical to a std tourney. The real $$ is in the tourney payouts.. not the bounties.

John (JWK24)


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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 05:25 AM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
My range is identical to a std tourney. The real $$ is in the tourney payouts.. not the bounties.

John (JWK24)
You are right, but in Progressive KO's 50% of the buy-in is on your head and it keeps increasing as you bust players and I am not talking about us calling wider to take the bounties of other player's. I talked about the fact that other player's will be calling you more often coz of the bounty on your head (So I never said I am going after bounties)

Maybe we will not over-value bounties but a new player or recs at the table will go after your bounties (I don't know why they think that way). So they will be calling wide & we need to adjust our game according to how they plays.

If we play the same way then we are not taking advantage of other player's tendency in that game.
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 06:37 AM
(#4)
WeaselBasher's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,138
In a way you both are right/have a point.....

At the end of the day, you want to win all the chips. And during that slick operation, you will pick-up KO's...I do agree that some tend to focus too much on the Bounties, and I think you should play as if it were any other Tourney.

as an addition///

Not all Progressive's on Stars have the same structure/ percentage on the Bounty, well, certainly a few months ago they were varied, i.e. some were 50/50% , some 70/30% for instance.
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 09:13 AM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
My range is identical to a std tourney. The real $$ is in the tourney payouts.. not the bounties.

John (JWK24)
This is certainly true for normal KOs and to a lesser extent for normal Super KOs.

However the prize money for Progressive Super KOs is typically really small until you get to the final table. The initial money bubble is very significant as the pay jumps become ridiculously shallow and insignificant compared to other tournaments. Therefore most of your money in those tourneys does come with KOs unless you have a realistic shot of making the final table. Even then the KOs by this point can become enormous, so these definitely have to be taken into account and may sometimes allow you to call of wider on some occasions.

You can do a rough conversion of how much a bounty is worth in terms of EV. If the buy-in is $20 + $5 + $2 and you start with 3000 chips, then when you're doing an EV calculation where you could win a bounty of $5, you can pretend there's an extra 750 chips in the pot when making your decision.

750 chips is rarely going to be a significant factor. But that's when bounties become more critical in Super KOs and later-stage Progressive Super KOs, because in a $10 + $10 + $1 game, the bounty you can win can effectively add another 3000 chips into the pot for when you make your decision. This means in the early stages, it can often be correct to get it in really wide as if you win, you get to pick up the bounty AND have a big stack which increases the chances of getting more bounties in the future.
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 09:19 AM
(#6)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
What changes do we have to make in our shoving range Mr.Spand?

Same, bit tight or bit loose when we are at 5-15BB?
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 09:58 AM
(#7)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
My shoving range is typically a bit tighter as I expect to have less fold equity. I do this by shoving fewer suited connectors or other combos without a high card and rather shove pocket pairs which do better against an expanded calling range which will mainly be overcards.

I'll typically call off a bit wider, but I normally do a rought pot-odds calculation based on what I said above.
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 11:05 AM
(#8)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
In my experience it depends on the buy in. There are far more bounty hunters in a $2.20, than a $10 and sometimes in a $50 you cant tell there are bounties. So simple answer is to expect more calls the lower the buy in ... the less simple answer acknowledges that we probably get called wider in a regular $10 than a $50 anyway.
 
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Sat Sep 27, 2014, 01:46 AM
(#9)
WeaselBasher's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,138
Isn't it great when you have been thinking or discussing a subject, and then either a Training Session or Video pops up?


The K.O. bounties explained at the beginning...........
http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/strate...8-151158.shtml
 
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Tue Sep 30, 2014, 06:39 PM
(#10)
Drarr's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 33
If you're between 5-15BBs probably best just to stick to optimal shove ranges regardless of tourney
 

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