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$2.20 Satalite tournament on BB

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$2.20 Satalite tournament on BB - Wed Sep 17, 2014, 08:04 AM
(#1)
Webbo62's Avatar
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Had just been moved to this table so had no read on any of the players at the table, blinds were 400/800

My BB with 3 limpers so took the free look at the flop with J8s

Hit the flop big time but out of position so checked to try and get some action knowing that I was behind any jack Ace-9 combination.

On the turn my hand just got better with only pocket 6's having me beat. Checked the turn also was concerned this may check round again luckily it didn't.

Did I do right checking the turn knowing that the flop had checked round and I most likely had the hand won?

I called the bet hoping to keep my hand disguised as there was a potential flush draw.

Was this the correct play or should I have check raised?

The river made the flush draw and at that point I suspected they were both holding clubs, villain 2 was all ready all in so decided to raise to try for the rest of villain 1 stack.

I know there are a few questions here and I won in the end but I know just getting the stacks doesn't mean I played it the best way.




 
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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 08:07 AM
(#2)
Webbo62's Avatar
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Oh and my expectation of Villian_2's hand was way off and can't even understand why he was calling villain 1 with what was basically jacks and 6's with a 3 kicker.
 
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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 08:18 AM
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rkleefstra's Avatar
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Very well played, imo.
 
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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 08:24 AM
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Thanks so much, really appreciate that.

Can you explain why villain_2 kept going, maybe at the turn he was hoping for a chop pot but I can't see any reason for his bet after the river it should have been plain to him at that pint he was only going to win if everyone else was sat with pocket 2's. It's just totally confusing me.
 
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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 08:48 AM
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rkleefstra's Avatar
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Posts: 2,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbo62 View Post
Thanks so much, really appreciate that.

Can you explain why villain_2 kept going, maybe at the turn he was hoping for a chop pot but I can't see any reason for his bet after the river it should have been plain to him at that pint he was only going to win if everyone else was sat with pocket 2's. It's just totally confusing me.

Because he is a fish and doesn't think !


He should have shoved pre imo. His stack was less than pot. V7 would prob call but V1 might have folded. Heads up with a pocket pair is as good as it gets being so short stacked.
 
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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 09:14 AM
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As an additional question what should I have done if it had checked round on the turn as that would have left a relatively small pot at the river, I assume I should have led out the betting on the river if that had been the case but what sizing would have been realistic.

I think in this instance the guy with the flush may have raised me and we may have still been playing for stacks but its hard to know as I don't really know what size bet I should have led with if both the flop and turn had checked round.
 
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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 09:45 AM
(#7)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
Checking OTT would have been massively -EV. Don't slowplay.

Betting for value OTR is about 75-80% pot... any decent player would call with a flush and not play for stacks on a double paired board. So, you would have gotten way less value.
 
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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 10:56 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hey all!

With a flush draw possible and only having trip J, I need to make a standard value bet on the flop and since there are 3 opps, need to bet 3/4 pot. If this checks thru and a club hits on the turn, instead of pairing the board... it's my own fault that I lose the hand.
In a cash game I'd check the flop, but not in a tournament.

After betting the flop, I'm going to check the turn and make it look like I missed a draw. Check and call any bet from an opp.

On the river, I'm leading when the club hits. By taking this line, it looks to the opp like I have clubs and not a full house... so I can get paid easier.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 11:29 AM
(#9)
rkleefstra's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
In a cash game I'd check the flop, but not in a tournament.
Learned something today... (i'm a cashplayer)
 
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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkleefstra View Post
Learned something today... (i'm a cashplayer)
In cash games, each chip is worth a given amount (there is only chip EV).
In tournaments, each chip potentially lost is actually worth more than a chip gained... so in tournaments, chip preservation is just as much, if not more important than chip accumulation. In tourneys, there is chip EV, but also tournament equity EV (normally labeled tourney EV).

That's the reason that we need to bet the flop (to protect against the flush draw).

The only time I want to slowplay in a tourney is if there isn't a single card in the deck that can beat me. Otherwise, if I think I'm ahead, I need to bet and size them in order to price out every possible draw.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:36 PM
(#11)
ketchup143's Avatar
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the player with 33 is clearly misreading his hand. newbies do this all the time...they don't understand what counterfitting is in holdem and they continue to think their hand is the same strength all the way through.
 
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Thu Sep 18, 2014, 09:01 AM
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Webbo62's Avatar
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Thanks for the advice JWK

The reason I checked the flop was that I was BB so at that point had committed no chips to the pot voluntarily so if the club had come on the turn it would have been easy to lay the hand down with no loss.

So if I understand you correctly I should have made a bet in the region of 3,500 on the flop, which if I understand correctly would have got the ops to fold out, maybe not the guy with the pair of 3's I guess.
 
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Thu Sep 18, 2014, 10:08 AM
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I'd bet 3780 on the flop.. not less.

The reason for the bet is that if someone has a draw, I want them to pay a price where they expect to lose chips on average to me, each and every time that they call.

John (JWK24)

P.S. HERE is a link to a blog that I wrote on this.


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Thu Sep 18, 2014, 10:21 AM
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Webbo62's Avatar
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Really good article makes things a lot clearer, however in this instance, bearing in mind I am out of position and as such would have had to led with this bet on the flop, if I had bet that amount and villain 7 was holding J/A or J/6 or any Jack with better than a 9 kicker, at that size of bet he would be forced in and I then have a difficult decision to make.

Being in a late position with no bets before him pre flop villain 1 and 2 could have a very wide range of hands although unlikely to have been a jack when the board is paired surely there is always a risk of them hitting trips too with a better kicker.

Or am I over thinking the hand?
 
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Thu Sep 18, 2014, 10:26 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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You're overdoing it a bit.

It is a larger bet, but that's part of the problem of playing hands out of position and why it's so big of a disadvantage.

The key is that we need to size the bets so the opps expect to lose chips and if we size them smaller, where the opps expect to gain chips... it's our own fault, when we lose them (which will happen each and every time on average).

John (JWK24)


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Thu Sep 18, 2014, 11:48 AM
(#16)
Webbo62's Avatar
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Ok thanks for that as you can see I still have a lot to learn and really appreciate the help. I think my weakest area at the moment is my post flop play, so all advice is helpful.
 
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Thu Sep 18, 2014, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbo62 View Post
Ok thanks for that as you can see I still have a lot to learn and really appreciate the help. I think my weakest area at the moment is my post flop play, so all advice is helpful.
hang in there.. it'll take time to learn, but all of us that want to be better players need to go thru it.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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