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How to properly 4-bet light?

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How to properly 4-bet light? - Tue Sep 23, 2014, 04:24 AM
(#1)
passter's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 195
BronzeStar
I know that the best positions to 4-bet light is on the DB maybe even on the CO, and sometimes in the SB/BB. My questions are : 1)What type of hands are you 4-betting light with? 2)How big do you make your 4-bets in position and out of position respectively? 4)Would you 4-bet tighter against a LAP (loose passive), TAG and TP (tight passive) as opposed to when playing against an LAG player?
 
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Tue Sep 23, 2014, 06:34 AM
(#2)
Fishwick's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 55
If you're writing in the beginner section, the answer is probably: Don't do it.
 
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Not a beginner - Tue Sep 23, 2014, 02:14 PM
(#3)
passter's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 195
BronzeStar
I'm not a beginner.
 
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Wed Sep 24, 2014, 12:39 AM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
A5s and A4s. Sometimes A3s.
Do it especially in CO or BUT vs the blinds, because then the villains are more likely to be 3-betting light and hence are more likely to fold to a 4-bet.
If someone in position 3-bets your EP or MP open, you should theoretically have a 4-bet bluff range, but in practice up to 50NL, you should just get out of the way and only continue with the top of your range. Most villains aren't 3-betting light vs early position opens, so they won't be folding to a 4-bet, so it would basically be spew to play back at them.

Against callers, don't 3-bet or 4-bet light at all. Just stick with your value hands.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed Sep 24, 2014, 03:20 AM
(#5)
Fishwick's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 55
Do you have any stats for the EV of your light 4 bets Arty?
 
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Thu Sep 25, 2014, 08:19 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishwick View Post
Do you have any stats for the EV of your light 4 bets Arty?
Against solid players, the EV of raising the bottom of your range will be close to zero. If it was -EV, it would be a losing play, so you wouldn't do it. If it was very +EV, then you could bluff with even more hands, so hand XX would no longer be the bottom of your range.

You can "solve" this by doing some pot odds and EV math. It's quite complex, but basically if you're bluffing, then you need a villain to fold a certain proportion of the time for your bluff to break even.
Depending on the chosen size of your 4-bet, you often need a villain to fold to your 4-bet about 55% of the time for you to break even with your bluff. In the real world, most villains will fold somewhere between 50-60% of the time. You therefore make a little bit of money when a villain folds often enough, and you lose a little money when villain doesn't fold enough. In the long run, you'd be close to break even if you got your bluffing frequencies and bet-sizes close to optimal.

A lot of players don't realise just how small the edges are in pre-flop raising wars, or how many hands you need to play to get an idea of your true winrate with certain hands in certain situations. That is to say, when you make bluffs that are close to break-even, you'll experience huge amounts of variance. e.g. You might 4-bet A4s and twice get a villain to fold AQ, but the third time you 4-bet it, you might get shoved on by KK and have to fold, so you gained about 20bb from the first two 4-bets, but lost 22bb on the third one. So after three trials, you'd actually be down 2bb. Maybe the 4-bet bluff gets through on the 4th attempt, so you're back up 8bb in total, but then you get shoved on the time after that and you're losing again. In these five hands, you would have put over 100bb in the pot, and yet you've won or lost less than 10bb. That's what small edges and high variance look like.

The short story is that if a villain is 3-betting and then folding at an exploitable frequency, you can go ahead and 4-bet bluff sometimes. If he's hardly ever folding to 4-bets, you're burning money by bluffing.

This is why the point about knowing your villains was made in your other threads. At the micros, 3-betting light can work against many players. But 4-betting light is basically spew against anyone in the micros. I've shut down my database for the day, but I'd estimate my 4-bet bluffs have worked less than 40% of the time. Based on the bet-sizing I usually use, they need to work at least 55% of the time. Ergo, I'm losing money by 4-bet bluffing. I'm sure there are winners at 50NL that haven't 4-bet bluffed in their lives.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:28 AM
(#7)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
10NL we raise co A5s then a 3bet from the btn, Ax and everything else? In my opinion our A5 is a light 4bet. Then we go to the sizing of the 4bet? Is it to make our opponent fold as a "bluff" or for "value" to get worse hands to call.

To 4bet light is not something to play around with unless you know why you are betting. Even in position in this example - when we get called there are limited options post flop. But hey the result is we 4bet and get a fold.


Last edited by ForrestFive; Fri Sep 26, 2014 at 12:38 AM.. Reason: typos
 
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Fri Sep 26, 2014, 01:37 AM
(#8)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
We utg raise KK and get btn 3bet - now this is not a 4bet light spot so call and flop the world? Not quite. They need to pay for draws or what ever then the sweat is the turn. No spade what AQ? Then feeling so sick when the spade hits the river.

We didn't 4bet "could have" or "would have" sorted it out pre flop for stacks? No there was action behind us. Nitty slow play KK? To 4bet here is not a bluff. Will AA fold - no, so call for value in this spot. With utg+1 over calling and even with top set has to fade nine outs on the river. If we put our opponents 3bet range strong suited.



Sorry using this thread as a blog - This is not a 4bet light hand, raising utg AJs then to 4bet is a light 4bet for me and what a flop.
 
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Fri Sep 26, 2014, 04:09 AM
(#9)
Fishwick's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 55
@6 Pretty much what I expected.

At micro 4 bet for value only, and forget about it being exploitable unless you're playing the same players many thousands of hands.
 

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