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$1.50 Standard SNG, KK, Should I be getting away from this?

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$1.50 Standard SNG, KK, Should I be getting away from this? - Mon Sep 29, 2014, 07:48 PM
(#1)
sjb958's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,537


KK on the very first hand on the tournament so no stats on villain unfortunately. Firstly, how's my 3-bet sizing pre flop and on the flop (?), and secondly should the min-bet by the villain on the flop give me any clues to what he's holding? I read it to be a bet which says 'please just call my tiny bet to let me draw for a flush', but thinking about it these types of bets are usually 1/3-1/2 the pot.

Should I getting away from getting myself all in here?
 
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Tue Sep 30, 2014, 12:11 AM
(#2)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi sjb,

First hand in a single table SNG or 90 players SNG - no reads. I prefer our smaller 3-bet but you could make it 3x the raise to 180. But this is splitting hairs without reads - We need to keep the good pairs in, with the Ax, and high connecting cards, in the micros for value.

OK - betting line. The Villain called our 3bet and donked a tiny bet! So why on a 3 flush board? This can mean anything in the micros.

I like your read "please just call my tiny bet to let me draw for a flush" OK we can't let them get away with it that cheap. IMO our raise size is too big.

With experience to read a passive player is difficult. They can jam with an Ad or pot it with second nuts or just do what they normally do. Get us to raise them - because they can never use their own chips.

If we look at our own hand strength 1 over pair to the board? How can our black Kings improve on a red board?

Other PSO members can help on the re-draw math, I would raise the donk bet a smaller amount and fold to any more aggression.
 
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Tue Sep 30, 2014, 05:57 AM
(#3)
sjb958's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,537
Thanks for your reply ForrestFive. We don't know for sure if this guy is passive with no reads - he did initially raise pre flop, so he isn't one of those 'limp 50% of hands' types. Perhaps his donk was actually a very clever play, which got exactly what he wanted - a reraise and more money into the pot (probably more than if he had just checked to me) - after all from his point of view he has only got to be worried that I am holding exactly the ace of diamonds and another diamond hits (or making a very unlikely full house). He has the hand locked and needs to get as much chips in there as possible, and if he knew he was against a likely overpair to the board then I think the donk was an extremely clever play, and one I may think about using in the future.

I have trouble with my 3- bet sizing against an initial bet (in this case the flop donk), working how much to bet in order to block draws in a small amount of time. Something i need to work on. Is there any easy way of working this out? I guess somewhere around the 200 mark would be better?

Just to make sure I am working it out properly, after his flop bet there is 370 in the pot. If I then raise to 200, there would be 570 in the pot and villain would be getting 570/180 = 3.16/1 odds. Is this correct? and a flush draw needs 4.2/1 from flop to turn.

Thinking about it, the size of the flop reraise is probably the biggest mistake I made in the hand, as it leads me on to being more pot committed than is necessary.
 
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Tue Sep 30, 2014, 10:40 PM
(#4)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi sjb958,

I see the hand replayer now - thought it was deleted


From what I remember we raised the small donk bet - was it 1bb, 50 chips? Not sure, but yes 4x to 200 or something that would make them pay 1/2 pot to call on their draw. We are not doing a 3-bet on the flop. Though I think this villain 3-bet jams over our bigger raise bet previously.

Don't want to give any bad advice as I'm not a hand analysis member. But if the villain did not 3-bet on the flop to our 200 raise and just called. And this happens quite a lot - they donk again very small on the turn.


Now we have such an amazing price to call. Do we raise them again or just call? Well no unless the board pairs or turn K. It would be very unlikely to runner runner into a full house to beat a flush.

PS. I see the hand now.

Betting 200 is in the ball park in this situation. Yes making them pay 4-1. But you could make it a bit smaller maybe 180.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:57 PM.. Reason: typos
 
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Thu Oct 02, 2014, 10:48 AM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi sjb958!

With KK, I get a standard raise to 60 in front of me. I'm going to 3-bet here. My normal 3-bet sizing is to between 2.5X and 3X the previous bet and since this is early in the tourney and I only have one opp in the hand, I'll go with the bottom end of this range and raise to 150.

The flop is three diamonds and the opp min-donk bets into me. I need to raise here and the key is the sizing of it. A standard bet against one opp is 1/2 pot, so I need to raise by half pot and will bet 205. I don't want to bet more or less than this because if I bet less, I'm potentially giving the opp the correct odds to outdraw me and if I bet more, I'm potentially losing more chips if they do have the flush. In a tourney (different than cash), chip preservation needs to be considered and applied.

The turn should be a brick and the opp checks to me. As played, a 1/2 pot bet pot-commits me, so I need to shove. However, if I had made standard bets preflop and on the flop, I could make a standard bet here and NOT be pot-committed if another diamond comes on the river.

Hands like this are why I need to have 100 buy-ins in my bankroll before playing a given level of tournament. I will lose hands like this, but want to be getting my chips in with a premium hand and an opportunity to chip-up for a deep run.. as the real money is in top 3's.

The key is to get it in as played on the turn and whether I win or lose, is irrelevant.. it's the correct play and the one that I want to make.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

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