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2nl cash table, Would appreciate some advice on this hand

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2nl cash table, Would appreciate some advice on this hand - Wed Oct 01, 2014, 11:58 AM
(#1)
Webbo62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 357
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In the cut of with Ks 10c. Play folds round to me so make a 3BB bet.

SB calls.

Flop comes 7c 6d 10d giving me top pai but a possible straight although I don't put 8/9 in his range, although he is the sort that would play a 9 with a king or ace.

He bets less than half pot I call.

river comes Kd giving me two pair but a potential flush is also possible.

He bets for about 1/3 pot 10c was not too sure what to do with this so raised to 20c. Would appreciate some advice on what would have been the best play here felt a call was to weak a bet and wouldn't build the pot.

River comers Kc giving me the nuts full house K's and 10's. villian checked, was really unsure how to bet for value here as his bet on the turn had been weak but he had led out betting on both the flop and river. Figured he had hit something on the board and was maybe going for pot control after I had raised the turn bet.

Opted for a pot sized bet of 66c he called.






His hand was Kh 9d so feel my read was pretty good, would appreciate any comments on bet sizing and how I could have improved it or whether I was too high.
 
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Wed Oct 01, 2014, 12:51 PM
(#2)
ADWish's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 459
That's a somewhat trickier hand to analyze. My thoughts are: 5-handed, raising with KT on the CO is not a mistake in my book. I like the fact you didn't make a raise on the flop - you don't want to play a big pot with just a top pair. On the turn, my advice would be to make a bigger raise. The villain seems weak. It seems as though he's making defensive bets to see the showdown cheaply. Your bet on the river,however, was a little too big I'd say. You were lucky your opponent had decent enough showdown value to call.
 
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Wed Oct 01, 2014, 01:20 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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On this one, right idea, wrong bet sizes.

Preflop, I'm happily opening for 6 cents.

On the flop, with top pair on a very wet board, I need to raise since the opp did not bet enough to price out the draws. I need to raise by 1/2 pot, to 17 cents. By calling here, the opp gets the right odds to continue in the hand with their draws.. so I expect to LOSE chips each and every single time to them.

On the turn, with the flush draw completing, I'm going to check my 2 pair. If I raise, I need to make a standard 1/2 pot raise to 28 cents. I do not want to raise to less because then the opp can be getting the right odds to try to outdraw me and due to this, I will and deserve to lose chips to them each and every single time on average.

On the river, I need to make a standard bet again (1/3-1/2 pot). I want my bet called and don't want to overbet and scare the opp off. First thing I'd be doing when this hand is over is to mark the opp as a clueless fish.. as any realistic player will not pay off a huge overbet on the river.

If you keep making these pot bets on the river... as soon as you run into better players, you're going to be in deep trouble as you'll be paying them off when they're ahead and won't win a single chip when you're ahead.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Oct 01, 2014, 01:26 PM
(#4)
Webbo62's Avatar
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Yes I was unsure on level for the river bet, but as he had called my turn raise I figured he must have hit something and tried for maximum vlaue, I did have him down as having a K or A so that also influenced my bet level as I was sure he was playing either K9 or K8 after he called the turn raise. I have to confess he did think long and hard before calling so my guess is that it was at the top limit of what he would call although trip kings must take some getting away from.

Althopugh with the flush potential and a paired board the warning bells should be ringing but he called it.

What sort of raise would you have suggested for the turn after his 10c bet the pot was at 36c so the 20c raise was just over 1/2 pot, considering I was only playing two pair with a potential flush on the board I didn't want to bloat the pot too much. I didn't have him down for the straight or a set due to his level of betting as I say I did suspect he may be playing a K9 or A9 combination and K9 turned out to be correct.
 
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Wed Oct 01, 2014, 01:39 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbo62 View Post
What sort of raise would you have suggested for the turn after his 10c bet the pot was at 36c so the 20c raise was just over 1/2 pot,
You bet 20c.. the raise was only 10 cents (their 10 plus an additional 10). A standard raise is 1/2 pot, so I'm making it 28c (their 10 cent bet plus an 18 cent raise). If I raise to less than 28 cents and the opp draws out on me.. it's my own fault that I lose.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Oct 01, 2014, 03:42 PM
(#6)
Webbo62's Avatar
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JWK thanks for that as always useful constructive criticism
yeah I always forget to take into account for a 1/2 pot raise I must also add the initial bet so raise was a little light on the turn.

I was more concerned with not bloating the pot on the flop though with only a pair of 10's, so as I understand my flop bet should have been about 16 c1/2 pot + villian bet (10 +6).

I am slowly getting it but I only started playing poker 3 months ago so its a steep learning curve.

What you say makes a lot of sense and if the flop raise had been bigger all subsequent streets would have been bigger then with a smaller bet on the river I am still getting the same value and have more chance of getting called on the river and not forcing a fold when I know I have the best hand.
 
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Wed Oct 01, 2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbo62 View Post
I was more concerned with not bloating the pot on the flop though with only a pair of 10's, so as I understand my flop bet should have been about 16 c1/2 pot + villian bet (10 +6).
not quite. You have to add the current bet to the pot, so the pot is 26 cents plus the opp's 10 cent bet.. so the real pot is 36 cents. 1/2 pot is 18 cents, plus the opp's original 10 cent bet.. which is where my 28 cents comes from.

John (JWK24)

P.S. I hear ya on the learning curve... been there.


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Wed Oct 01, 2014, 03:50 PM
(#8)
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Overbets on the river won't force a fold. What it does is to value own us... we get no value from worse hands and only get called (and lose) by better.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Oct 01, 2014, 04:35 PM
(#9)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
My two cents:

I would play it like ADwish said : call flop, raise bigger OTT, bet slightly less OTR.

Raising flop is building a pot we don't really want with TPGK. Second problem is, raising will fold many hands that we want to keep in, and all hands that have us beat will call or raise.
 
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Thu Oct 02, 2014, 03:11 AM
(#10)
Webbo62's Avatar
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Yeah its a difficult one I went with just calling the flop as my readon the op's range had an 8 or 9 in his hand along with a king or Ace and don't think a raise would have got him off the pot based on his previous play.

Its a difficult one with a straight draw and flush draw on the board but I don't think he was the sort of op that could have been priced out of the pot if he had held either of those.

The turn card and his low bet told me he wasn't holding the Kd and if he had the Ad he didn't have the flush. So a bigger raise here as stated by all would have helped build a pot without such a massive overbet on the river.

It seems there's a disagreement about the flop and I am still unsure which is the best tactic, the flop being so wet says raise it but a holding of a pair of 10's with a good kicker means most times your likely to get outdrawn and certainly at microstakes it seems really hard to push most ops off a pot. I assume at the higher levels most ops are far more aware of pot odds though.
 
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Thu Oct 02, 2014, 05:27 AM
(#11)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbo62 View Post
It seems there's a disagreement about the flop and I am still unsure which is the best tactic, the flop being so wet says raise it but a holding of a pair of 10's with a good kicker means most times your likely to get outdrawn and certainly at microstakes it seems really hard to push most ops off a pot. I assume at the higher levels most ops are far more aware of pot odds though.
Unfortunatly, poker isn't an exact science...there is no right answer

Raising OTF will, in my opinion, build a big pot that I don't really want with such a weak, vonurable, hand. OTT, we hit two pair, thats a much stronger hand. we can get value from worse hands for sure, we also need some protection against people that hope for a 4th flushcard OTR. And we have outs to beat flushes (lots of implied odds). Those reasons make me wanna raise OTT.
 
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Thu Oct 02, 2014, 06:54 AM
(#12)
Webbo62's Avatar
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Posts: 357
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I understand its not an exact science, hence the reason I post so many hands on here. helps get a range of answers and I will try and mix my play up anyway so as not to be predictable and to readable having a range of answers shows me different ways of applying correct play.
 

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