Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Tournament Section (MTTs & STTs) /

low stakes STT multitabling profit

Old
Default
low stakes STT multitabling profit - Thu Oct 02, 2014, 03:13 PM
(#1)
tann133's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 6
BronzeStar
so my question is does anyone here who is multitabling low stakes STTs make a decent profit out of it? i've been playing for a while at 3.5 and 7$ levels and the amount of bad beats and ridiculous suckouts is huge. i'm used to the occasional downswing but mathematically in the long run there shouldnt be so many AK vs A7 losing, AA vs QQ losing and so on. so i'm wondering is anyone making a decent profit on these games?
 
Old
Default
Thu Oct 02, 2014, 03:17 PM
(#2)
wiltshireman's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,569
(Moderator)
Welcome to PokerSchoolOnline!

Here is a link to help familiarize you with all the features and services available at PSO. Feel free to look around the forum and post any comments or questions you may have.



You are invited to join the PokerSchoolOnline Community Home Games Club. Information on how to join the club may be found HERE. Hope to see you there!


Moderator
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 05, 2014, 03:17 AM
(#3)
FireMedic815's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 2,079
I don't think anybody is going to answer that question, it sounds like a bad beat story.

Mathematically A7 is going to beat AK 30% of the time and QQ is going to beat AA 20% of the time, so without seeing your stats I can't say if you are running bad or if they are just hitting the average.
 
Old
Default
Thu Oct 09, 2014, 05:27 AM
(#4)
tann133's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 6
BronzeStar
well if you consider losing with AA pre flop all in-s 27% of the time a bad beat story then yea, when by the probability theory it should be only 10%, and those stats are over the course of 5k+ games. i dont think that percentage will correct itself out when i get to 10k.
 
Old
Default
Thu Oct 09, 2014, 05:41 AM
(#5)
95NiX's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 115
STT SNG's have a pretty large variance, with a lot of regs. Downswings of 20-30 BI or more are not uncommon. You have to take this in mind when multitabling them.

Btw are you playing 6-max or 9-max? And what format: regular / turbo / hypers ?


Bracelet Winner

 
Old
Default
Thu Oct 09, 2014, 02:17 PM
(#6)
tann133's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 6
BronzeStar
9-max turbos, i'm avarageing 0.20$ per game so far, that is okay i guess, but the huge downswings just dont make much sense. and i've noticed that at the 7$ buy-in level everyone seems to play the same style so it's kind of hard to take advantage of those players because it's the most optimal strategy.
 
Old
Default
Fri Oct 10, 2014, 09:01 AM
(#7)
mytton's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 181
Quote:
well if you consider losing with AA pre flop all in-s 27% of the time a bad beat story then yea, when by the probability theory it should be only 10%, and those stats are over the course of 5k+ games. i dont think that percentage will correct itself out when i get to 10k.
Yes, its a bad beat story. You have lost more than expected when getting the chips in ahead. It's a succession of bad beats. Don't know where you get the 10% figure from though. AA will lose about 15% of the time even against any 2 random cards, rising to 20% against a really tight range (QQ+, AKs). And that's just heads-up - obviously it loses a lot more multiway.

Yes, you have still obviously lost more than your share. But if you are still beating the games despite this you are doing well. If I could offer one piece of advice it would be to try (and I know from personal experience it's not easy) not to let good and bad luck distract you from playing your best game. Every moment spent in-game thinking about how lucky/unlucky you are/were/will be is a moment not spent thinking about things that will actually help you make good decisions, like opponents ranges and betting patterns and odds and outs.
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 12, 2014, 11:02 PM
(#8)
Drarr's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by tann133 View Post
well if you consider losing with AA pre flop all in-s 27% of the time a bad beat story then yea, when by the probability theory it should be only 10%, and those stats are over the course of 5k+ games. i dont think that percentage will correct itself out when i get to 10k.
Biggest eye-opener for me was when I first got tracking software and after enough games you can clearly see that the % win for all-in pre's are what they should be. You can easily get to a point where 95% of the numbers are true way before 5k games

No idea what that 27% & 10% is all about, its normally between 15-20%, and I still make you around 1.8k games short of 5k under your current screen-name.

Re. other posts the 7s are beatable, it helps to game select and avoid good regs plus run key spots through an ICM calculator. Just because everyone appears to be playing optimally they aren't and many are making big mistakes.

And downswings are natural and variance is a lot bigger than people think. You can easily have 100s of games losing and 1000s breaking even as a result of natural variance.
 
Old
Default
Mon Oct 13, 2014, 11:32 AM
(#9)
Exposured's Avatar
Since: Oct 2014
Posts: 3
The 7$ is a reg fest. The higher you go, the more you see people playing / grinding for a decent living. This doesn't mean that they don't make mistakes. Alot of bad regs make mistakes or play breakeven. Most of them are just rakeback pro's. Dont try to be that and just concentrate on your own game.
 
Old
Default
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 03:07 PM
(#10)
tann133's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 6
BronzeStar
so i looked at my last 200 games and turns out that when i'm all in pre flop and dominating my opponent(AK V AJ and o on) then my win lose rate is 50/50, made me laugh very hard.
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 07:52 PM
(#11)
$irUlrich's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
i hear you, i'm a regular at 6max and dealing with regulars is hard. I had a downswing myself. I think profitably, 4 tables is the best way as you only need to win 1/4 to break even and if in case you made money on your other table, that's where the profit will come from
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 11:13 PM
(#12)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
The low/medium stakes Single Table games, either full ring or 6-max / turbo to hyper are the grinder's & regs haven. The higher you go the tougher the game. In the "battle of the planets", which has now been removed, they look to earn money from the leader boards.

It's a cop out to say "variance" or maybe ICM / bubble strategy. With 2 or 3 pay spots, getting a decision wrong hurts more if you "feel" all those buy-ins are burning a hole in the bankroll.

I've started again and back to SNG. Dropping to 25c/45 player games is 80% roi and $1/45 is 64% roi. Sample size can't extrapolate to high multiple table volume if there is a mistake in our game we haven't noticed.

STTs are solvable in the sense a bot could win them - though using that software would not be allowed at high stakes.
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 14, 2014, 02:11 PM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
STTs are solvable in the sense a bot could win them - though using that software would not be allowed at high stakes.

Using a bot is not allowed at any stakes.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 14, 2014, 02:25 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tann133 View Post
well if you consider losing with AA pre flop all in-s 27% of the time a bad beat story then yea, when by the probability theory it should be only 10%
Your arguments become spurious when you pull numbers out of the air... AA allin pre is about 85/15 against any reasonable all in preflop range extending all the way out 100% (any 2 cards). Against the tightest of stack off ranges, QQ+/AK for example, AA is 84/16. The only way to get it to 10% and below is to use fake ranges (like for example, AA vs. AK only is 92/8, but that's not a real range as no one would stack off only AK and not big pairs like KK).

I don't doubt that you're running bad (and we've all been there), but if you're citing a clearly incorrect number like 10% above, it leads one to wonder what other numbers you've gotten wrong.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 14, 2014, 02:27 PM
(#15)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drarr View Post
Biggest eye-opener for me was when I first got tracking software and after enough games you can clearly see that the % win for all-in pre's are what they should be. You can easily get to a point where 95% of the numbers are true way before 5k games

No idea what that 27% & 10% is all about, its normally between 15-20%, and I still make you around 1.8k games short of 5k under your current screen-name.

Re. other posts the 7s are beatable, it helps to game select and avoid good regs plus run key spots through an ICM calculator. Just because everyone appears to be playing optimally they aren't and many are making big mistakes.

And downswings are natural and variance is a lot bigger than people think. You can easily have 100s of games losing and 1000s breaking even as a result of natural variance.

^^Very good advice!


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 10:33 AM
(#16)
Nataraj1's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Using a bot is not allowed at any stakes.
ForrestFive wasn't saying the contrary at all... [Edit: hmm, he did mention high stakes... but I gather he was speaking about 'solvable' in the sense of using a system to be profitable in these types of games]
 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 01:04 PM
(#17)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
I know Forrest wasn't advocating the use of bots at lower stakes, but the statement "using that software would not be allowed at high stakes" could imply it's ok at micro-stakes to a less experienced player, which we happen to have a lot of here at PSO... so it's good to clarify.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 17, 2014, 09:28 PM
(#18)
Nataraj1's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 573
Yep, I saw Forrest's mention of 'high stakes' afterwards and wrote too soon. I know you always mean well, Dave.

Cheers.
 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 17, 2014, 10:53 PM
(#19)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Yes, Me saying "High" stakes was related to the amount of statistical data nose bleed players have in a much smaller pool than our "Micro/Low" games.

Listening to stuff on pod casts, reading forums and understanding they have the information to make a complaint to PokerStars on a suspicious account, that is having a ridiculous win rate, (bots / cheating / multi accounting) etc..

So I was out of context here talking STTs and thinking... I would never know in the micros, variance or a bot? The good news is - They[1] track your client mouse movements? - so you are really a human and all your stats (whether or not you opt in a promo).

I was on the back end of a brain freeze - I can't prove variance at any stake.


[1] They = PokerStars, not a bot

Last edited by ForrestFive; Mon Nov 17, 2014 at 11:37 PM.. Reason: [1] Read my post and think - clarify
 
Old
Default
Sun Nov 30, 2014, 01:26 PM
(#20)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778


This months STT and MTT graph in buy in's on a couple of different screen names and poker sites. Only a handful of games on Pokerstars, anything from €1 to €20 but mostly €2 Jackpot SnGs (I hit the €2k Jackpot back in June). Lost at the €20's but it was a small sample (35 games) and I'm not fully rolled for them. 30% Rakeback, bonuses and a few freebies to add to that graph made it a decent profitable month for me.

I'd say game selection is the most important thing. I target those Jackpots because they attract whales, even with a 20% rake my ROI is +8%


Bracelet Winner
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com