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2nl - call sb AQo (not my fav 3bet oop) - flop tptk ranging...

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2nl - call sb AQo (not my fav 3bet oop) - flop tptk ranging... - Tue Oct 07, 2014, 02:15 AM
(#1)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
In the past AQ was a monster then to play it oop in a 3bet pot or there's a 4bet... facing more action sucks.

We call and hit top pair / kicker on a flush board we don't have. The rest is representation - I'm not actually bluffing to start with. The c/r is a set if you believe me? Only tptk making a draw pay more. On the turn K, now I can rep AJ - oh no, still the villain doesn't believe me!


Can you reverse engineer this hand? Because I can't range my opponent when the flush comes in on the river. Got to stop doing this bluff vs unknown player range.

 
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Tue Oct 07, 2014, 04:51 AM
(#2)
FireMedic815's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 2,079
I know we are supposed to range opponents and not assign exact hands, but I think JJ is about all he could have had here. I could be wrong but thats what it looks like to me.
 
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Tue Oct 07, 2014, 05:49 AM
(#3)
FireMedic815's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 2,079
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMedic815 View Post
I know we are supposed to range opponents and not assign exact hands, but I think JJ is about all he could have had here. I could be wrong but thats what it looks like to me.
Let me go through my thinking in the hand I probably should have in the first post.

1st is his sizing pre, most recreational players don't vary there size by position, so with no reads that looks like he could be a reg.

on the flop you check and he bets either as a c bet bluff or for value, when you three bet you don't have to have a set there and really the only set I would give you a ton of credit for is 66 and maybe TT because QQ would have probably raised pre. So I think you have some Qx KQ, AQ QJ QT, and then all the club draw too especially if you have Ax of clubs. I see a lot of players 2 betting those on the flop.

so now he has to have some kind of equity to call, I think he folds 88 and under and AK AJ to the two bet and probably the 99 too but lets leave the 99 in for now. he doesn't have 66, QQ or TT because I think he stacks off with these hands and I think he stacks off with QT AA and KK too. so he has 99 JJ Qx or Tx with a draw like the AT or KT of clubs.

on the turn I am not really worried about you having AJ unless its the AJ of clubs and if he has JJ he blocks the straights and if he has the J of clubs he can take AJ out of your range. so he can call with JJ KQ, AT or KT of clubs if he didn't fold 99 on the flop he probably folds it here,

the river brings the flush so he doesn't have AT and KT of clubs or any other flush I think he calls a fair bit with KQ so JJ really makes the most sense to me.

I don't put people on exact hands often but when I watched that hand JJ jumped out at me big time and I would be willing to bet that he had exactly JJ
 
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Tue Oct 07, 2014, 10:49 AM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Villain has something like QJ or JT, but he could be as strong as AA (which should still be a fold on the river, given the action and the runout).

I don't understand your line at all. Why are you raising the flop to look like a set, when you have top pair top kicker? Your river bets reps a flush or a straight, because with worse made hands, you should be check-calling the river. (If you bluff-raised the flop with J9 or KJ, you would have turned a straight or a pair. With Kx, checking the turn would often be best). All you do by betting the river with AQ is make worse hands fold. Villain will always call with flushes, straights and probably sets and top two. I think you were lucky that you caught him at the bottom of his range (one pair), and the board got ugly for his hand, so he could fold it. Most of the time, villain is snap-calling the river with hands that beat AQ.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue Oct 07, 2014, 12:41 PM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
As its 2NL I doubt villain had AA because there are a tiny fraction of players at that level who can fold premium pairs.

I do tend to agree with the rest of Arties post though. We took a weird value owning line with a moderate strength hand.
 
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Tue Oct 07, 2014, 11:40 PM
(#6)
FireMedic815's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 2,079
I am sticking with JJ but I agree with arty about turning your value hand into a bluff.

I am telling you guys he had JJ why don't you believe me lol.. Do we know this other player? JJ is all he can have here.
 
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Wed Oct 08, 2014, 01:30 AM
(#7)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Thanks for all your replies,

There are different player opinions which is good. I still stick with a bluffing range that is not changing as the hand plays out. An opponent who min open raises may put me on AA KK QQ AK - IF we 3bet. So now assumes we don't have that range?

A bad assumption to think 1c/2c do hand ranging.

But I like to keep the old school "professional" betting line, or now called "game flow" and not donk into the raiser. Keep them "honest" on any cbet by raising!

So we understand why I can suggest any 2 calling cards that hit the flop that don't 3bet pre. Now back to the assumption the villain may have the understanding see we have TT 66 AQ AcTc (nit AA) etc.. genuinely in our flop raise or NOT. Is not that relevant because equally we can bluff now - what our small blind calling range was pre flop.

Yes, I agree the line it is a bit confusing. But all I did is take the initiative in the betting line on the flop. I've got 66 or TT "don't you see"? Well no, the players at these stakes don't - I've seen a call down with 44 on that board texture.

Keeping the initiative to represent the 66 or what ever! needs a turn bet. Then on the river the flush comes in?

Yes, I totally agree with what has been said. Absolutely no worse will call our river bet - we are beat.

So why bet? It is the most difficult decision. Check after all that effort taking the aggressive line and now, to show weakness. So we x/c a small bet and x/f a big bet - now we can be bluffed.

Value owned or merged opinions? Thanks again, I don't expect players ever agree on strange lines.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Wed Oct 08, 2014 at 01:48 AM.. Reason: typos
 
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Wed Oct 08, 2014, 11:03 AM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
I still stick with a bluffing range that is not changing as the hand plays out.
But why are you "bluffing" with TPTK on the flop? A bluff is defined as a bet or raise that makes better hands fold. Is villain ever folding better than top pair on the flop?


Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed Oct 08, 2014, 12:12 PM
(#9)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Strange lines usually = bad lines. Unless they are done with specific reads.

The hand you posted, you'll get away with at 2NL. It can be a value raise, but it's not a bluff, better isn't folding. Given you play more stakes than even I do in a month you will get crucified at 25NL if you do this against a competent player.
 
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Wed Oct 08, 2014, 12:12 PM
(#10)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
double post but I will use it to say that I may have misread the post I replied to.
 

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