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The Big Stacks almost ALWAYS hit

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The Big Stacks almost ALWAYS hit - Fri Oct 10, 2014, 05:30 PM
(#1)
Vball Rev's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 8
I would say that about 80% of the time when I am all - in pre-flop with AA, KK, QQ or JJ.....A big stack will call with 89, 46 or even Q2 and usually hit a straight, pair, or even worse, a set. Why does this happen SOOOOO often.

It seems like the donkey players hit very VERY often. Makes playing properly extremely frustrating.
 
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Sat Oct 11, 2014, 02:51 AM
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How big is your stack when you're playing the hands? If your stack is small enough, the lesser hands will have the odds to call.. and if so, will win chips on average each and every single time.

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Sat Oct 11, 2014, 06:22 PM
(#3)
TweedleBeetl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vball Rev View Post
I would say that about 80% of the time when I am all - in pre-flop with AA, KK, QQ or JJ.....A big stack will call with 89, 46 or even Q2 and usually hit a straight, pair, or even worse, a set. Why does this happen SOOOOO often.

It seems like the donkey players hit very VERY often. Makes playing properly extremely frustrating.
How did you quantify these numbers?

over how many hands did you count these occurences? How many times did you get these cards? how many times did you go allin preflop? how many times was it called by a 'big stack'? What criteria did you use to qualify a stack as 'big'?
 
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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 07:29 AM
(#4)
donna1906's Avatar
Since: Apr 2014
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vball Rev View Post
I would say that about 80% of the time when I am all - in pre-flop with AA, KK, QQ or JJ.....A big stack will call with 89, 46 or even Q2 and usually hit a straight, pair, or even worse, a set. Why does this happen SOOOOO often.

It seems like the donkey players hit very VERY often. Makes playing properly extremely frustrating.

like this one ?

 
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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 07:40 AM
(#5)
Roslyn_akka's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 263
Well all honesty, why limp? You give villain steal spot, he took it and then he is committed!! I might be wrong but no bad beat here?


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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 07:52 AM
(#6)
royalraise85's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn_akka View Post
Well all honesty, why limp? You give villain steal spot, he took it and then he is committed!! I might be wrong but no bad beat here?

I agree 100%, limping is a terrible thing to do here.

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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 08:01 AM
(#7)
donna1906's Avatar
Since: Apr 2014
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U are probably right and I should have raised but I am convinced he would also had called or re raised then because he had done it again and again.
My intention was from the start to just call and then re raise all in. I know it is an invitation for others and I am taking a risk. But at that stage of the tournament I thought it was the best way to play it like this.

And I didn't claim it to be a bad beat , just an example for what the topic starter meant.

I am not stating either that he is right and that big stacks always win.
 
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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 09:45 AM
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Open-limping always gives the opps the correct odds to be in the hand. As soon as they get the odds in their favor, they will win chips on average, each and every single time... regardless of what our hand strength (even AA expects to LOSE chips when doing it).

If we give the opps a play where they expect to gain chips, we will and deserve to lose chips to them each and every single time. When hands are misplayed, we will lose more often than we normally should, because the opps have the odds in their favor.

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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 12:25 PM
(#9)
Chordless302's Avatar
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A/K is not a winning hand, not yet. You either commit to it and hope for a good flop or if you limp in like this, realize that someone raising you six times the big blind is either holding a pair, which you don't have yet, or bullying you with the stack. Your mistake isn't limping in so much as it is responding to the raise. I limp in with things all the time, in tournament play I'm not committing all my chips until I know I'm winning the hand, or at the very least, probably holding the best hand barring a miracle draw by the villain. Bullies win because you fight back with nothing in your hand yet other than hope. They can afford to lose, you can't. I'd have folded on his raise. Yeah, I'm a wimp, but I also survive. AA, or KK or even QQ and I'd have pushed. Otherwise, with a short stack, you actually want to see the flop and then commit your chips.
 
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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 01:27 PM
(#10)
simonrdr's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chordless302 View Post
Otherwise, with a short stack, you actually want to see the flop and then commit your chips.
Will all due respect, I absolutely do not agree with that last sentence. With a short stack you want to get a good spot and PUSH your chips in. You will either win the blinds and antes uncontested, which is a great result, or someone will call, and then you'll either double up or bust. Not wanting to commit before the flop when shortstacked is a BIG LEAK that will be exploited by a thinking player. In other words, when short, it's push or fold pre-flop. NO LIMPING.
 
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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 01:45 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonrdr View Post
Will all due respect, I absolutely do not agree with that last sentence. With a short stack you want to get a good spot and PUSH your chips in. You will either win the blinds and antes uncontested, which is a great result, or someone will call, and then you'll either double up or bust. Not wanting to commit before the flop when shortstacked is a BIG LEAK that will be exploited by a thinking player. In other words, when short, it's push or fold pre-flop. NO LIMPING.
+1 I totally agree. Doing so is beyond a big leak.. it's a gusher!


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Sun Oct 12, 2014, 10:59 PM
(#12)
Chordless302's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonrdr View Post
Will all due respect, I absolutely do not agree with that last sentence. With a short stack you want to get a good spot and PUSH your chips in. You will either win the blinds and antes uncontested, which is a great result, or someone will call, and then you'll either double up or bust. Not wanting to commit before the flop when shortstacked is a BIG LEAK that will be exploited by a thinking player. In other words, when short, it's push or fold pre-flop. NO LIMPING.
He's short, but he's not desperate short. I hear your logic, but AK is simply not a won hand, it's just two high cards and any pair beats it. I wouldn't be shoving all my chips in pre-flop based on it and I quite often play short stacked myself. Doing so is a quick exit more often than we care to believe and winning a couple of blinds is less important than not wasting chips. You could limp in six times on that one raise, and the chances are, if you do so, you'll hit something eventually and the payoff will be better than grabbing the blinds a couple of times would have been and you'll be doing it because the odds are clearly in your favor and you have the cards to back up your bet. But I almost exclusively play large field tournaments and I'm playing to survive as long as possible. I don't limp in on garbage hands, I leave that to the guys playing with the big stacks. It's a luxury they can afford, as is pushing all your chips in when you have the table covered. I don't look at the guy with the largest stack as "winning", more often than not, they're out before me, a large stack is just a weapon, and sometimes it's just a good idea to get out of the way and wait until you clearly have them beat. On that hand, I'd have folded after the six big blind raise and lived to play some more hands. As I'm sitting here typing this, I am in a tournament that started with 6183 players, I'm in the last 300 and yes, I have a short stack and have had it for most of the game, never having more than 5000 chips at any point. That's actually not that unusual, and I do not slow play or do any of that sort of thing. Final position was 274. Yes, it would be nice to finish at the last table, but finishing after 15 minutes is even worse, I play to have some fun and entertainment for a couple of hours.
 
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Mon Oct 13, 2014, 12:17 PM
(#13)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chordless302 View Post
Yes, it would be nice to finish at the last table, but finishing after 15 minutes is even worse, I play to have some fun and entertainment for a couple of hours.
The key here is your reason for playing, if your main goal is to have a few hours of entertainment then carry on. I played like this myself at one point, and often went quite deep but never had a shot at the final table.

If your main goal is to win, then you have to take some risks in order to build your stack. Premium hands just don't appear often enough for a winning run that takes you to the final table.

Finishing after 15 minutes doesn't bother me at all, I just go on to the next tournament. As long as I feel I made the correct decision, I'm content. IMO most of the players here are trying to learn how to win, and PSO is trying to help them learn how to win. Their goals are somewhat different than yours, hence the different point of view that some posters have expressed.

There is nothing wrong with playing for entertainment, nor is there anything wrong with playing to win, but the two different goals require different strategies. Best of luck on the felt!

 
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Wed Oct 15, 2014, 05:36 PM
(#14)
RedLetterman's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 665
I think this is more likely what the OP was talking about.

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hand...269_72C0D8151C
 
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Wed Oct 15, 2014, 05:56 PM
(#15)
simonrdr's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chordless302 View Post
But I almost exclusively play large field tournaments and I'm playing to survive as long as possible.
Like one poster said, it all comes down to what your goals are. If you're merely here to maximize your $s invested vs time you play, you go right ahead a try to 'survive' as long as possible, limping hands with a 10bb stack and such. You'll get a few min-cashs, but you will never win a tourney this way unless you flop the nuts in a multi-way limp pot and win everyones chips (and that will very rarely happen).

If on the otherhand you actually want to win some money and grow a bankroll, you will learn that min-cashing won't cut it. You'll actually have to run deep with a big stack to make a FT and bink one. And yes, that means you have to take some risks and bust trying to. Look at all the top MTT players on OPR, look at their ITM%. None of them are over 20%, some of them are as low as 12%. That's right, almost 9 times out of them they don't make the money. But you know what? They're still winners because when they DO make the money, they have a big stack and they finish deep, because in MTTs, the big money is at the top and nowhere esle.

The way you play, I would raise your open limps with any two cards, knowing you don't want to commit until after the flop. I'd love to have you on my table in an MTT.
 

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