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180 man tournos - when to start pushing wide

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180 man tournos - when to start pushing wide - Thu Oct 16, 2014, 06:15 PM
(#1)
sjb958's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,537
I have trouble with 180 man tournaments where I blind out too easily. I wait until around 10bb and push in pretty wide where possible from mid-late pos, but very often at this point players before me have already pushed in forcing me to fold. Then the blinds will increase and I will inevitably blind out.

Question is, do you think I should be changing my strategy by pushing all in with a larger stack, say making myself think that I am in a dangerous position at 15bb (or an 'M' of 6 for instance) and pushing in with this size stack - as If I double up I would be on 30bb and in a strong tournament position to start bullying the table. The downside to this is that maybe I would be risking too much for too little.

Do you think I would stand a better chance of doing well in tournaments by start pushing in with a larger stack?

Thanks for your opinions...
 
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Thu Oct 16, 2014, 06:21 PM
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turbo or non-turbo?

If non, I'd shove at 10BB. If it's a turbo, I'd start to look to shove at 13-18BB, depending on how the table is playing.

I wouldn't necessarily shove wider (still base the range on how many blinds I have)...but would go sooner.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Oct 16, 2014, 06:36 PM
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Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,537
Sorry, yeah I meant turbos. So I'll try pushing earlier with similar ranges (maybe slightly tighter, taking into consideration our bigger stack?), see if that helps.

It may be a silly question but when you say 'depending on how the table is playing' - how would the type of table affect how big of a stack I would be pushing?
 
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Thu Oct 16, 2014, 07:10 PM
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depending on how aggro or passive they are, I may go at 13-15BB, or could go at 18 to even 20BB.

In a turbo, normally, if I'm at 15-18BB or under... if I'm going to play a pot, I'll be all-in for my first play.

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Fri Oct 17, 2014, 01:45 AM
(#5)
Nataraj1's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 573
The real question is why aren't you playing non push/fold poker before you get short-stacked? Do you know about playing position, stealing blinds, stop-and-go, re-steals?

Additionally, how are you playing the early stages?
 
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Expand Your Repertoire - Fri Oct 17, 2014, 05:16 AM
(#6)
Tonk Shuffle's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 618
I haven't had much success with 180-man games, but I would suggest watching some of 'ChewMe1"'s videos in the library.

It is also good to try different things with your opponents. Stop-and-goes can be effective in the blinds about 8-10bb deep, but not a trick to be used too often.

Something I learned from one of Dave's videos is to consider re-stealing before becoming too short stacked:

+If a villain opens 2X the big blind, then 9-15bb's is a good 3bet shove re-steal size
+Villain opens 2.5x, then 10.5-17.5bb's re-steal shoves
+3x opens, then 12-20bb's re-steals

What if you open, and the villain 3bets?

+If a villain 5x 3bets, then 15-25bb's is a good 4bet shove size
+Villain 7x 3bets, then 20-30bb's 4bet shoves
+9x 3bets, then 25-30bb's 4bet shoves

This is an oversimplification, because we have to consider things like who will call us off light, and who can we get to fold stronger hands. It is either opponent, or situational dependent - or both. Late in tournaments not many stacks - if any - are 100bb deep. Make a point of memorizing these re-steal and 4bet ratios. Keep in mind that fold equity decreases at the lower end of the stack sizes. Also, if deep stacked, 4bet/folding or 4bet/calling are valid options.

Of course sometimes we make these moves, bust out, and look/feel studip stewpid, er...idiotic. Other times nits will fold QQ on the bubble, and loose players will call off with 22 or Kx - doubling us up. Its hard to run deep sitting back waiting to be dealt AA, and the suck-out exits occur too often when short stacked. The compensation is that rather than bubbling, or min-cashing; we arrive more often at the final table deep stacked, and in a position to win the tournament.

I hope this info helps you get some better results. Good luck!
 
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Fri Oct 17, 2014, 08:35 AM
(#7)
sjb958's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,537
Nataraj those questions are interesting ones and ones that point me into thinking that perhaps I play too tight and let my stack dwindle down, where I should really be looking to pick up chips by stealing and restealing more often against the right types of villains. Also, perhaps to stack up I should limp in after limpers more with suited connectors in order to get a nice double up when I hit my hand hard...

Tonk, thank you so much for taking the time to write that post, much appreciated. I think the main problem is that I dont resteal enough. I am always worried that if I resteal, my opponent would turn up with pocket aces all the time! So after reading your advice, just now I played a 360 man turbo, down to about 27 players (I was around 18th). Big stack with stats of 35/25 did his standard raise from MP, I was in the small blind with A7, shoved on him with 13bb and he turns up with KK! It always seems to happen to me and that is why I hate reshoving!!!!

From what you are saying, it seems that it is better to take a chance of getting knocked out in order to gain a big stack in order to push towards the top places, instead of just scraping through to the min cashes.

Last edited by sjb958; Fri Oct 17, 2014 at 08:49 AM..
 
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Fri Oct 17, 2014, 02:13 PM
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Nataraj1's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 573
Yep, hope I was not coming across too strongly: it just seemed that instead of trying to fix the tactics at the short-stack end, you may need to fix something beforehand, and then also fix whatever is happening when short-stacked.

Make no mistakes, knowing push/fold when short (or not...) is extremely important in Turbos. Knowing when you have fold equity as short is also important, so something above 10 BB is better than 10 BB... People regularly say around 15 BB, but I would say it depends if antes are involved: in which case, check your M as well as how many rounds you are left with if you 'wait' based on the time left for the blinds to increase again and your stack size. It might be good to wait a little for a better spot and shove late on blinds, or you may need to shove earlier but you need to take into account position and M together with cards...

Also check your understanding of a re-steal. It seems you are mixing up a re-shove and a re-steal... More precisely, your opponent in the example you gave would have a different range from someone who raised LP instead of MP, and especially if you have seen him or the stats indicate he's performing recurring thievery!

About risking getting knocked out, it all depends on your goals IMO: if you need to bankroll up with less variance then min cashes can be acceptable.

If you're targeting Top payout, then play to win and not min-cash, and this certainly involves taking some risks to double up.

In other words, if bubbling out bothers you, then play to cash in, if not (and this probably means you're sufficiently rolled for your level), then play to win as all the good payout is in #1 - #3. If you really want to get great at this game, you should aim for #1 always.
 
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Fri Oct 17, 2014, 02:19 PM
(#9)
Nataraj1's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 573
Actually, these are similar to the questions I had to answer for myself and study before I started to see a big jump in performance in MTTs, so explore the reasons why you are dwindling your stack, check out how others play come ante-time as well, fix those leaks, and you should see tons of improvement.

Good Luck!
 
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Sat Oct 18, 2014, 03:42 PM
(#10)
Tonk Shuffle's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjb958 View Post
I think the main problem is that I dont resteal enough. I am always worried that if I resteal, my opponent would turn up with pocket aces all the time! So after reading your advice, just now I played a 360 man turbo, down to about 27 players (I was around 18th). Big stack with stats of 35/25 did his standard raise from MP, I was in the small blind with A7, shoved on him with 13bb and he turns up with KK! It always seems to happen to me and that is why I hate reshoving!!!!

From what you are saying, it seems that it is better to take a chance of getting knocked out in order to gain a big stack in order to push towards the top places, instead of just scraping through to the min cashes.
This a bit of a misinterpretation. We should always give ourselves a good opportunity to win the hand. On the one hand it is good to have faith in our ace blockers in blind versus blind, or blind versus button situations. On the other hand, in general, it is better to respect raises from early and middle positions. It is very important to target peeps who will frequently open/fold to 3bets. Also a 25% VPIP is still slightly ahead of A7s; this probably was not a good spot to gamble.

Here are some 3bet ranges to consider, varying from nitty to loose:

1%: AA KK
2%: JJ+ AKs
4%: TT+ AJs+ AKo KQs
7.5%: 88+ ATs+ AQo KTs QJs
11.5%: 77+ A8s+ AJo+ K9s+KQo QTs+ JTs T9s
20%: 22+ A2s+ ATo+ K8s+ KJo+ Q8s+ QJo J8s+ T8s+ 98s

It is worth keeping in mind that real EV jumps more from 1% to 2% than it does from 11.5% to 20%. Remember the two key words: Targets, Situations.

I hope this helps, good luck!

Last edited by Tonk Shuffle; Sat Oct 18, 2014 at 10:13 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 20, 2014, 02:55 AM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonk Shuffle View Post
I haven't had much success with 180-man games, but I would suggest watching some of 'ChewMe1"'s videos in the library.

It is also good to try different things with your opponents. Stop-and-goes can be effective in the blinds about 8-10bb deep, but not a trick to be used too often.

Something I learned from one of Dave's videos is to consider re-stealing before becoming too short stacked:

+If a villain opens 2X the big blind, then 9-15bb's is a good 3bet shove re-steal size
+Villain opens 2.5x, then 10.5-17.5bb's re-steal shoves
+3x opens, then 12-20bb's re-steals

What if you open, and the villain 3bets?

+If a villain 5x 3bets, then 15-25bb's is a good 4bet shove size
+Villain 7x 3bets, then 20-30bb's 4bet shoves
+9x 3bets, then 25-30bb's 4bet shoves

This is an oversimplification, because we have to consider things like who will call us off light, and who can we get to fold stronger hands. It is either opponent, or situational dependent - or both. Late in tournaments not many stacks - if any - are 100bb deep. Make a point of memorizing these re-steal and 4bet ratios. Keep in mind that fold equity decreases at the lower end of the stack sizes. Also, if deep stacked, 4bet/folding or 4bet/calling are valid options.

Of course sometimes we make these moves, bust out, and look/feel studip stewpid, er...idiotic. Other times nits will fold QQ on the bubble, and loose players will call off with 22 or Kx - doubling us up. Its hard to run deep sitting back waiting to be dealt AA, and the suck-out exits occur too often when short stacked. The compensation is that rather than bubbling, or min-cashing; we arrive more often at the final table deep stacked, and in a position to win the tournament.

I hope this info helps you get some better results. Good luck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonk Shuffle View Post
This a bit of a misinterpretation. We should always give ourselves a good opportunity to win the hand. On the one hand it is good to have faith in our ace blockers in blind versus blind, or blind versus button situations. On the other hand, in general, it is better to respect raises from early and middle positions. It is very important to target peeps who will frequently open/fold to 3bets. Also a 25% VPIP is still slightly ahead of A7s; this probably was not a good spot to gamble.

Here are some 3bet ranges to consider, varying from nitty to loose:

1%: AA KK
2%: JJ+ AKs
4%: TT+ AJs+ AKo KQs
7.5%: 88+ ATs+ AQo KTs QJs
11.5%: 77+ A8s+ AJo+ K9s+KQo QTs+ JTs T9s
20%: 22+ A2s+ ATo+ K8s+ KJo+ Q8s+ QJo J8s+ T8s+ 98s

It is worth keeping in mind that real EV jumps more from 1% to 2% than it does from 11.5% to 20%. Remember the two key words: Targets, Situations.

I hope this helps, good luck!
Sweet posts,Tonk.

Hope you're killing it on the tables and maybe see you there sooner or later (preferably the former).
 

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