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NL10 FR: JJ vs 2 villians OOP in 3bet pot

NL10 FR: JJ vs 2 villians OOP in 3bet pot - Sat Oct 18, 2014, 06:40 PM
Flipp'n'Flop's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 12

Villain_7 playing 19/13 after 145 hands, Villain_9 playing 25_20 after 20 hands. I'm playing 13/13 after 16 hands this session.

My thinking preflop was I have a good but not great hand and if I 3bet I would move both Villains off the weaker part of their ranges (77+ KQ+) and they would call/4bet the stronger part and then I'm playing oop with a weaker hand. So I decided to flat call. I thought the flop was pretty good for JJ as Ax has missed (apart from flush draws) and I could get value from 88+. I decided to check raise for similar reasons as preflop. I think the looser Villian_9 is going to cbet his whole range. I think I'm ahead of his range.

In the end I was obviously way behind and I found it an easy fold after my check raise on the flop. I'm not sure if I played this good/bad/mediocre? Maybe my assumption on the Villains ranges were too wide as they are both playing from early position? Maybe I was better folding preflop to avoid being in this tricky situation? Even if my range estimation was correct, maybe its not +EV to check raise on the flop?

I would appreciate some thoughts on the hand...
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 09:47 PM
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi Flipp,

You ended with a bunch of maybe's that I think hit the nail on the head... I think some of your reasoning was off in the hand.

First your preflop action would have been a 4-bet, V9 has already 3-bet V7's open raise. Folding isn't a horrible play here tbh considering their ranges are probably tight, you don't close the action, and will be out of position the rest of the hand. It seems crazy to consider folding preflop with JJ, but I doubt we are making much, if any, money in this spot long term... and suspect most players lose money here. Cold 4-betting I would like if the ranges were wider, but with a tight player opening UTG and V9 3-betting him from UTG+2, I'm not excited about that option either... I think we wind up getting it in vs. QQ+/AK a large portion of the time.

On the flop, check-raising is not good imo. Here's where the problem lies... you said:
I decided to check raise for similar reasons as preflop. I think the looser Villain_9 is going to cbet his whole range. I think I'm ahead of his range.
Whether or not you are ahead of his preflop 3-betting range is debatable, but even if we assume that's true, you are not ahead of his range that continues vs. a check-raise. So if we feel we are ahead of his preflop range, check/call serves us better to keep those worse hands in. And yes this gets tough to know what to do then on the turn/river, which is part of why I believe most players, unless they play at an expert level post flop, are not making money getting involved here pre.

Finally, as egregious as it seems to put in 2/3rds of our stack and then fold, I do think this fold was good... given the action by both players after we check-raise, there is zero chance we are winning so we are just looking to 2 outs (and still can be dead to quads once in a while).

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