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Short Table Play NLHE B&M

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Short Table Play NLHE B&M - Thu Dec 12, 2002, 10:28 AM
(#1)
Deleted user
Two Tables left with 6 & 5 Players respectively. My table has 5.

I have ~6900 in chips - BB 600/300 25 antes.

BB is the short stack with about $2800 after posting his blind. Solid limit player.

Everyone folds and I see A7o on the SB.

I raise 3X BB, he pushes all-in. I think about it for a while and I figure that he has pp or Ace big. It is another $1025 to me so I decide that I have to call even though I am fairly certain that I am behind.

He flips AQ and Flop comes 3 6 Q 8 A.

I double him through and take a big hit to my stack that hurt my chances to win this evening. :roll:

Questions:

a) Should I have to tried to steal with this type of hand against a player that most likely will call all-in with any ATo or better offsuit and probably any A suited at this point?

b)Should I have called for the extra $1025 knowing that I was behind to probably a three outer? 3 aces if he has pp, 3 7s if he has Ace big. 3:1 dog on a 4:1 pot odds or save the remaining 20% of my stack for better use later on?

c) my first instinct was to complete the bet and try to see a flop but I figured that it would just cry for an all-in from him with any decent hand.


alright, let it rip ladies and gents.


CH
 
Old
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Thu Dec 12, 2002, 11:04 AM
(#2)
Deleted user


Cannedham,

a. That's a reasonable hand to try for steal against a random BB. 8)

b. You read him correctly when he pushes in. You acknowledge you were on a steal but tried a brave draw to the 7 to "HOPE" for a win. You should have trusted your read (hind sight is 20/20). :

$0.50 + HOPE = a cup of instant coffee if you make it yourself (most of the time) ops:

c. The steal was the correct move, but the call was bad. The GAP principle takes effect after his raise. You are either close or a big dog (fold). :idea:

You would have had a decent stack to compete T5100 with a fold. You switched places with him with the lost. :roll:

This is a lesson I'm starting to learn: trust your reads.

I've been a 56% to 62% player for many months. I stopped some of the splashing around and am now starting to run in the 72% to 80% range. I still get beat with a few miracles but my finishes are improving. Hope this helps you on to better results. :!:
 
Old
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some thoughts - Thu Dec 12, 2002, 11:50 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
First things first....I ain't Noodles (heh, had to get that jab in!). Second, me telling you how to play is akin to Roy Lichtenstein telling Pablo Picaso how to paint (Dennis Miller, eat your f*^kin' heart out with that vague reference.....), but, anyway, here goes:

Quote:
a) Should I have to tried to steal with this type of hand against a player that most likely will call all-in with any ATo or better offsuit and probably any A suited at this point?
YES. What are the odds of him having one of those hands, when you have one of the As? Wonder if the 3x bb raise was enough, though.

Quote:
b)Should I have called for the extra $1025 knowing that I was behind to probably a three outer? 3 aces if he has pp, 3 7s if he has Ace big. 3:1 dog on a 4:1 pot odds or save the remaining 20% of my stack for better use later on?
YES & and a little no. You had already defined the range of hands he will go all-in with (ATo or better (includes all pairs), and Axs. You are only ahead if he plays back with A6s or worse. Other wise: 6 outs if he plays pp6 or less, 3 outs anything else in the range. If he has any pair above 7s, you are at least a 2.3/1 dog. Pairs below 7 you are a 1.3/1 Dog, A with a lower kicker you are about a 1.6/1 Fav, A with higher kicker you are at least a 2.7/1 dog. There is $5500 in the pot after his all-in bet. The Pot Odds on the extra $1025 are 5.4/1. That's pretty inviting. The only problem with that kind of analysis, is that it is incremental and not systemic: It looks only at the issue in front of you and not the "whole" event. You don't mention the rest of the stack sizes at the table, when the next blind increase is due, or what spots get paid, so I'm a little unsure as to how much having $1025 left will increase your chances to move up the money ladder. After your ante and bet you have $5075. If you call you have $4050. With the pot odds, and it only costing you 20% of your stack (~1.5bb), a call seems like a good play by you here.

One question though: When you first decided to bet the $1800, had you thought about what you would do if he came over the top of you all-in? And how if you folded or called and won/lost that that would affect your tournament?

Quote:
c) my first instinct was to complete the bet and try to see a flop but I figured that it would just cry for an all-in from him with any decent hand.
He has about 4.5BB left after posting his BB. He's got to look for a hand to double through on and/or some easy money. If he thinks for a minute that you limped with something you will fold to an all-in bet from him with, he should do it. I would limp in that situation only if I was sure he would go all-in and I had a hand for trapping (AA,KK,AK).
 
Old
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Re: Short Table Play NLHE B&M - Thu Dec 12, 2002, 12:03 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannedham

a) Should I have to tried to steal with this type of hand against a player that most likely will call all-in with any ATo or better offsuit and probably any A suited at this point?
Yes. From what you said, you will win uncontested often enough to make it +ev. He appears very tight.


Quote:
b)Should I have called for the extra $1025 knowing that I was behind to probably a three outer?
Yes. The payouts will not affect the usual correct decison as it it too far from the big money.

If you are going to raise to steal, then you have to call an all-in. It is better to fold in the first place, rather than raise and then fold to the all-in. Maybe the only thing to do differently would have been to raise more. I would have put him all-in myself.

Quote:
I double him through
You did not double him through when you called. Think about it.
 
Old
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Thu Dec 12, 2002, 01:03 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
CH, A hand from my on B&M tourney. The BB had a big stack, I was the short stack on the button, and the player called all in with T8o. A very shaky call.

So while you may not put YOUR player on that bad of a hand, a lot of players will look at the pot paying them 2 to 1 and go in on a variety of hands.


So I would expand the range of hands Bruno listed and you have the same pots odds, but with perhaps a greater chance of hitting your hand.

You can't fold there, regardless, even if you put him on PP.

And if you look at the fact that he may reraise with KJo, Q9s, etc... You are the favorite on those.

If he had a few more chips, then you probably have to fold there, as the Pot odds don't justify a 3 to 2 pot odss call.

Randy
 
Old
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Thu Dec 12, 2002, 01:09 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
I am ready to go to war with A7 in the SB at a 5 handed table. Your preflop raise was fine, because it was telling the BB essentially that he was calling YOUR all in, which it was in fact. Easy call there, even if I raised his BB no look, i call the extra 1025 no look too. He just happened to wake up with a hand and you couldn't hit your lucky 7. nothing like morning jam!

d
 
Old
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Thu Dec 12, 2002, 03:58 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
I forgot to mention that a typical player on his size stack would also usually go with hands that you are a favourite over, particulary when the raiser was the SB. I doubt he folds any ace, pp, or 2 pictures. Probably even worse hands. They would have to be a total rock to only have the range of hands you put them on, but even then , it is still correct for you to call the all-in.
 
Old
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Thu Dec 12, 2002, 06:56 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Here's some more food for thought: One point that hasn't made relates to the size of the raize before the flop. Our Hero raised three times the Big Blind. No one has questioned whether that was the best size for a raise. Let's look at it.

A raise from out of the blinds indicates a powerful hand regardless of the size of the hand, and a raise of twice the BB should have been sufficient to deter any marginal hands, while being small enough to get away from in the event the opponent comes over the top. In addition, a small raise from that position might just make one feel a trap is about to be sprung, and deter him from coming over the top.

Having said that, once an opponent played back at me and I was sitting with A-7, I'd probably dump the hand, though the ultimate decision would depend on stack sizes, my opponents' playing skills, and a bunch of additional considerations.
 
Old
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Thu Dec 12, 2002, 10:01 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
OK. Now lets' see the "know it alls" punch holes in Mr. Krieger's advice!
Thank you, Mr. Krieger, for you input. I look forward to reading much more from you!
 
Old
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Thu Dec 12, 2002, 11:32 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Hey Indy:

I have been the recipient of some posts from Noodles that I have taken very personally. Noodles has admitted that sometimes his "people skills" might leave a little to be desired. But, Noodles contributes excellent advice for players trying to improve their game. And just as I would take issue with anyone attempting to stifle your input (I enjoy your posts), I must take issue with you dissuading Noodles, or anyone, from disagreeing with the Dean.

Lou is one of my favorite authors on poker -- but he is only one opinion. I would like to believe that Lou would like to see healthy debate in this Forum, because lively debate will educate us all.

I tend to agree with Noodles take on this particular issue, but I think my first reaction was more along Lou's approach. Playing in $30-60 games and some bigger buy-in tourneys, I think raising BB is sufficient to get the big blind to lay down a marginal hand, and still leave room to lay down if the BB comes over the top all-in. Against a top, average aggressive player this will work. Against most Europeans and Asian top players it is a huge mistake. They will look at the big pot, the "weak" raise, and if they have any decent hand will bet you all-in. You cannot make this bet at this late stage of the tourney with such shallow money, build a big pot and lay it down against a reraise (knowing you will do it if they reraise you). Agrressiveness wins at the end of tourney simply because picking up pots, ANY POTS, leads to such huge equity shifts that it almost always is preferable to gamble.

My guess is that Noodles would argue you are far too weak by raising only BB with money so shallow, and to compound the error with a fold against an allin reraise simply compounds the error.

I think that both Lou's and Noodle's positions are justifiable, and it really depends on your opponents. I am constantly amazed at how quickly European players will commit to all-in. Apryll has posted some excellent comments that this is because Europeans are better at big bet poker because they are so much more familiar with the style than Americans who almost exclusively play limit poker.

I have not formulated a definitive decision on which style is the "best" for tourneys.

I, for one, would love to see Noodles response.

Just my opinion,

Tim
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 12:07 AM
(#11)
Deleted user
I don't recall mentioning any names in my above post, so why is it that noodles comes to mind?
In Sklansky's "Theory Of Poker", he brings up a point about about the difference between tactics and strategy. For example, in blackjack, there is a specific move to make for every card you hold, compared to what the dealer has. No "it depends". Clear cut and simple. These are "tactics". In poker, you can have the exact same hand, with the exact same math, odds, whatever, and depending upon the situation, player tells, etc., you may do something different. This is "strategy". There are many times when the science part of the game goes out the window! You may have 2 to 1 odds to make your hand, and 10 to 1 pot odds, and still fold, depending upon the situation! There is never a "you MUST do this here", and "you MUST do this there" in poker, especially in a tournament! Giving examples of what YOU would do in that situation is one thing, but trying to ramrod your opinion as poker gospel is another.
As an example, a recent post in the Beginners Forum, telling a beginner that they MUST call an "all in" raise against a player they know nothing about with QQ, in the BEGINNING stages of a tournament, is absolutely crazy, in my opinion! Why in the world would ANYONE want to risk going out early in a Tournament with QQ? Very bad advice, in my opinion!
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 12:37 AM
(#12)
Deleted user
Agree with everything you are saying Indy! That's why i like to read multiple views! Keep'em coming!
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 01:26 AM
(#13)
Deleted user
Your opinion is obviously very educated Bob. I take back my apology. You are fu**ing clueless and a much bigger arsehole than I will ever be.

And it doesn't depend, if enough information has been given in a particular situation. Sklansky has even written this himself and criticised authors that say it did. This is generally true post flop. The usual areas this may not be true are in disussing preflop situations, where there may be 2 equally correct actions.

Personally, I think someone has to provide firm big-bet guidance on the forum as the PSO lessons certainly do not. Better than the blind trying to lead the blind.

Quote:
As an example, a recent post in the Beginners Forum, telling a beginner that they MUST call an "all in" raise against a player they know nothing about with QQ, in the BEGINNING stages of a tournament,
Who was that then, because I just re-read the thread and can't see anyone that said that. Maybe just another example of your lack of reading skills eh.

If raising 2X BB means raising 600, then I think it would be a close decision should a typical player then move-in. If it was a rock then an easy fold.

If raising 2X BB meant raising 1200 then it is still usually a call if they then move-in.

Personally, I think both plays are usually bad ideas in that situation. Much too wimpish.

I can't help thinking that Mr Krieger may have been talking in general about raising from the blind. Comments such as....

Quote:
A raise from out of the blinds indicates a powerful hand regardless of the size of the hand,
...just does not apply in this specific situation. A raise out of the small blind could indicate any 2 cards depending on the players involved and the pyschology of the moment. Certainly, with a player in the BB as tight as indicated, the SB probably should raise on any 2.


erm, errr, at least I think so. I could be wrong. It's only my opinion. Is that better Bob u arsewipe.
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 06:43 AM
(#14)
Deleted user
Quote:
A raise from out of the blinds indicates a powerful hand regardless of the size of the hand, and a raise of twice the BB should have been sufficient to deter any marginal hands, while being small enough to get away from in the event the opponent comes over the top. In addition, a small raise from that position might just make one feel a trap is about to be sprung, and deter him from coming over the top.
We are talking no limit poker here, final 2 tables, right? Our hero has approx 10x the BB and open raises. There is about 1050 in dead money in the pot?

What other raise can you make then an allin raise?!? If you raise the BB, you are asking to get raised allin! If you raise 3x the BB you are putting in almost 25% of your stack, virtually committing yourself to the hand anyway. If you are committed anyway, bet it! This discourages callers.

I sure hope the Dean was generalizing or talking about a cash game in his post because any raise other than allin in the original poster's scenario is crazy, and laying down to a reraise is even crazier. It is fold or commit, period. Most pots at the 11 player level in a real tournament are of the "raise and take it" nature. The allin raise discourages callers, which is what you want. Even though your A7 may be the best hand, you do not want to see a flop.

As for the raise from the blinds indicating a powerful hand, here is an excerpt from a trip report detailing some late stage play by me in a real tournament:

"I go card dead and don’t play a hand for about an hour. Meanwhile we are getting closer to the money. I’m tired of [a certain player] running over the table, so I play back at him from my blinds 3 straight times. Also, I raise 5 straight hands at the 19 player level and don’t get a call xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. I come over the top of xxxxx once. I have TT and open raise for 800, he makes it 2000 to go from the BB, I come over the top and he lays down AK face up.

My hi point is about 11K, when I take a beat trying to bust a player who happened to find KK when I have QQ, dropping me back to 8K.

After the dinner break we are at 2 tables xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxand I now have xxxxx on my immediate right xxxxxxxxxand xxxxxxxxxxxxx on my left xxxxxxxxx lol. Talk about a bad seat draw.

I decided at dinner to shoot it up and try to build a competitive stack. Here’s why--payouts were [lousy]xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. No really big shift in cash until 5th, so I was going to try and get a stack so I could take a shot at the big cheese. xxxxxx was playing tight, and xxxxx on his left was using this opening to attack the table every hand.

I made 2 mistakes at this table that cost me a shot at the big money, but otherwise played wellxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

First hand back from break, I have 8K xxxxx has 5K and is UTG. I’m late position. xxxxx limps. Now I know he probably has a big hand, but all fold to me and I find AQ suited. I should have just limped, but I raised him to 3000 straight. He comes over the top and I have to call for pot odds. He has KK, I flop a Q and a four flush, but I miss and he gets a huge double up from me and now I’m looking at xxxxxxxxxx a crappy finish.

I pick my spots and move allin in many many times. I never get called. I build back up to T6000 and tighten up, as 1 double up gives me a shot. Well, I go card dead, literally getting 2-5, 3-5 and other shit for about an hour. I make 1 allin bluff move that doesn’t get called, and I make it to xxxxxxxxxlevel with 5K, xxxplayers left. There are 6 players with either a similar stack or a shorter stack than me. I’m looking at a serious ladder move with 1 double up, so I’m waiting for a decent hand. It never comes, as I keep getting Noodles' J6 off, etc. Plus, the small stacks keep surviving. ****.

Mistake #2. I put 1600 in for the BB and have 3500 left. All fold to xxxxxxwho puts me allin blind. I have 2-4, and I have pot odds to call. I tell him I have the odds to call with my 2-4, and he says yes you do. I stand and look and 4 players will have to play allin in their blinds before me. xxx place is another $1000, and with any luck, maybe I get a double up or 2 and get to 5th. I reluctantly fold.

Well, I never see a hand and the friggin allins keep sucking out. I’m facing 1600 in the BB soon, and the levels go up in 5 minutes. If I can get through this round of blinds I will prob move up 3-4 spots. I never see a card over 8 until I am UTG with the K3 off. I move it in, all fold to xxxxxxxxx who has an easy call as you read last night and of course rivered me. God forbid I catch some luck on an allin showdown."



As you can see, once I had less than 4K and the blinds were 300-600 with antes, I went to allin or fold mode. I LEARNED THAT FROM NOODLES. There were multiple stacks with over 20K. If I raise to 1200, they will call and take a shot at flopping a hand that can bust me. In this scenario, you MUST raise allin or fold and put them at as much risk as possible. PLus, your allin bet is saying, "I'm prepared to bust out of the tourney with this hand." Your small, double the blind raise is saying, "yes, I'd like to win this pot, but if you come over the top, I can get away with minimal damage to my stack."

All opinions are good and different opinions help you look at situations from another person's perspective. The Dean's comments are always welcome, and are generally on the money. I applaud him for getting involved and I hope he stays involved.

But don't use the Dean's posts as weapons to throw at some of the more active participants on the forum such as Noodles. Losing Noodles and his big bet lessons would be a disaster for this school.

I've said it before, Noodles understands and explains the underlying concepts of big bet poker better than anyone I have ever talked to. I learn from him all the time. If you choose not to follow his advice, so be it. Tournaments are all about dead money.
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 10:40 AM
(#15)
Deleted user
I will agree with you on 2 points, noodles! You are correct when you say "it doesn't depend, if enough information has been given in a particular situation". And, yes, I am a MUCH bigger "arsehole" than you could ever think about being!! I had 20 years of Marine Corps training to perfect the skill!!
And I can read just fine, my friend. YOU are the one who told the beginner that they must go all in with QQ-preflop-early stage-against an UNKNOWN player! OK, I got the wording a slight bit wrong. You say "no question you get it all-in against an unknown player in that particular situation." Now, back to your statement that I agreed with, the "it DOESN'T depend", how can enough info be given in that situation when you are against an "unknown" player? QQ is not good enough to risk going broke in the early stage of a tournament. Wouldn't it be a much better idea to lay the hand down, see what happens, watch the "unknown" player to get a better read on his/her moves and style, and then decide to make a move in the latter stages? It was early, the blinds were small, there were 3 limpers, and then you make a pot size raise with your QQ. You still have plenty of chips left to play your game, even if you do lay this hand down. If "unknown" does happen to have AA or KK, which he very easily could have in this situation, unless you hit a miracle flop, you are gone! Now, had this been a player that you were familiar with, and you knew that he always raised with AA or KK, then it is a totally different situation. Or, if you were short stacked in the mid to late stages of the tournament. Another one of those "it depends" situations.
I will agree with you on one more point, noodles, and that is that PSO does need to provide "big bet" guidance, either in the form of lessons, or in the forum. But I think it should be someone who is qualified to do so, not someone with a few private lessons and only a year or 2 of experience under their belt. Giving one's opinion and teaching are 2 totally different things.
In my reply to Mr. Krieger's post, I did not mention your name, noodles. Apparently you and others simply assumed it was you when I used the word "know it all". Why is that?
I'm not saying that you don't make some good points, and don't give some good advice, noodles, because you do. But you have not only slammed me in several of my posts, I have seen you do it to others. You say that it is nothing personal, but when you ridicule something specific that someone says, how can they NOT take it personal?
Keep your apology and call me all the names you like. If I disagree with you, I will continue to say so.
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 11:17 AM
(#16)
Deleted user
In this post, I don't propose to defend any point of view in this argument; what is clear to me, though, is that ad hominem attacks
deflect all involved from the issue at hand.

We're all here to learn, and that's optimally done by keeping one's mind open and mouth closed, not the other way round, unless there's something worthwhile to say. When reasoned debate furthers
learning, we all gain; when it merely leads to sniping, this helps no-one, so far as I can see, except for blowing off a little steam.

For my part, I'm pleased indeed to be a member of PSO, and come ready to learn each time I sit down, even when I get my **** kicked across the table, because of being a stubborn SOB! :lol:

Alan
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 11:25 AM
(#17)
Deleted user
Amen brother!
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 11:47 AM
(#18)
Deleted user
Thank you, depraved! Point well taken! And, from someone who actually has some live poker acclomplishments! My temper tends to rule my actions, sometimes, and is one of my many faults I need to continually work on. I apologize to those who read these posts for helpful information, and am going to take depraved's advice. I am going to keep my mouth shut, and my ears and eyes open!
I, too, am pleased to be a Member of PSO and hope to learn enough to make my own "Clash of the Titans" match someday. Congrats on your Foxwoods victory, depraved, and thank you for opening my eyes!
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 12:35 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
I think there are a couple of things to remember when posting a response to a poker question thread: Use all and only the information given by the original poster. The ability to minimalize "egocentricity" to the situation will give the original poster and ensuing discussing the most benefit. Anything you feel is missing (stacks sizes, blind levels, etc.) say it's missing; Don't make personal attacks, it's buys nothing but ill will; The truly great aspect of this place (PSO) and it's forum, is the ability for everyone to participate (give and take) in the learning process with minimal schoolyard stuff (attacks and such) that occur at other on-line poker forums (see RGP or 2+2). There is a certain civility we embrace here. And, as such, the environment is more cohesive for the learning process.

I agree with Apryl 100% when she says that
Quote:
Noodles understands and explains the underlying concepts of big bet poker better than anyone I have ever talked to.
I have had the opportunity to talk big bet poker with some very good big name pros, and frankly (surprisingly), they cannot elucidate strategy as well as Noodles can. I do not necessarily agree with him on 100% application of his thoughts to my game but, my horizon is expanded and I am able to learn something every single time.

I disagree with Lou on his comment on the raise in this example. Lou stated that no one had questioned the size of his bet, but I think he might have missed my paragraph buried in my response where I did. Lou questioned it as too big. I questioned it as too small. Based on the range of hands that Cannedham has said the BB will comeback at him with and his stack size, you must make him make a decision for all his chips there, if you are going to play A7. You cannot be squeamish about the play. Either go, or don't go! You want him to fold in that situation! The BB must double through or get easy money soon. If he senses weakness he will go all-in, and you don't want that with A7 in that situation.

I see CH's play as one where an initial decision (to play A7 for a 3xBB raise) caused him unthought about problems down the road (a re-raise all-in by the BB forcing a decision) that caused him to lose a chunk of his stack and severely crippled his chances in the tourney. If you know he will comeback at you with Ax or bigger, then you know going in that if you put him all-in on your A7 and he has A8 or better he's coming and you are behind. The odds him having A8 or better are less then 50%. He doesn't know what you have. You go all-in to steal because: CH described the player as tight, CH defined the ranges of hands the player will come back at you with, the odds of him having a better hand are less then 50%, you need to steal this money to get closer to the big money, you put the BB on a decision for all his chips, you eliminate any further decisions by yourself, you still have 4k left, etc.

The only reasons I can see for raising less then 3x/fold in this situation is if I was confident I could beat the table or that the BB would think I was trapping and would fold (as Lou suggested).
 
Old
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Fri Dec 13, 2002, 01:33 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
The only way I would fold here, is if the BB had a bigger stack, which would destroy your pot odds.

What Dean Krieger said would apply more to a big stack coming after a medium stack with a 2X or 3X BB raise, just trying to steal, and possibly with a lesser holding than A7.

No way I am crippling a big stack, if I had one, on A7.

But that was not the case here. You have to call.

An all in is not a bad play here. That could, perhaps, depend on the SB's stack.

Randy/Randall
 

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