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My Lesson on COnnectors (Lesso

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My Lesson on COnnectors (Lesso - Sat Dec 14, 2002, 03:27 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
Hi. For those of you who are following my lessons, wanted to make a point about the most recent one. As I noted briefly in the text, severalof my recommendations are tighter than those of recognized authorities (Sklansky, Jones, Krieger or Ciaffone). Specifically, I say to throw away Kxs, 54s, 43s, ATo, adn 76o, while the others say to play them in late position.

I have two reasons for this:

First, I play every day and I see players misplay these holdings. They do this by playing them too early in position, or by playing them badly after the flop. Entering with these hands is a very iffy proposition, and you need to be able to throw them away after he flop if you do not hit them very hard. These hands are so marginal anyway that not playing them is whole lot cheaper than playing them poorly.

Second, many readers have a tendency to loosen up from whatever the written guidelines are. This is not all bad because as you improve to expert status, you can play a few more hands. But peole over do it, and most of them are not yet experts. So perhaps if I make my requirements tighter, when you loosen up you will play the other guys say. Of course, in my opinion, if you do not loosen up, you should do even better.

I hope this helps.

BarryT
 
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Sat Dec 14, 2002, 03:40 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
Barry,

I enjoyed your piece as it lays down many of the fundamentals of mid limit cash games. I was curious as to your fondness of the JT hand, my least favorite hand. I will rarely, if ever, play it in a full table not even from LP with several limpers, which is usually the case here in California. I find this is one of the least profitable hands out there, because you will often flop some kind of a draw and miss more times that you hit. Am I incorrect in this assumption? I'd like to get your thoughts on this particular hand. I mean I'll open with it in MP or LP if I got a bunch of tight rocks on my left and my table image is good, but I usually convince myself to just throw it in the muck and wait for a better spot.

Dan
 
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JTo - Sun Dec 15, 2002, 06:50 AM
(#3)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreams32097
Barry,

I was curious as to your fondness of the JT hand, my least favorite hand. I will rarely, if ever, play it in a full table not even from LP with several limpers, which is usually the case here in California. I find this is one of the least profitable hands out there, because you will often flop some kind of a draw and miss more times that you hit. Am I incorrect in this assumption?
Dan
Hi, Dan: Thanks for the reply. Yes, I do have an unusual fondness for JT, both suited and offsuit. In fairness, I should point out my feelings are not shared by all of my colleagues. My friend Abdul, for example, does not care much for the hand.

There are two circumstances when JT is good. One of them is exactly the situation you stated. You are in late position and several players have limped. You are getting a very good price to flop a draw, which is exactly what you want with JT. You hope to flop an open end straight draw, which you will make just under 1/3 of the time. Yes, this is certainly the minority of the time, but the pot is going to be large enough to pay you a handsome profit when you make your hand. Remember, every straight using JT is the nut straight. I love making the nuts.

Of course, you still need to be careful. You do not want to play if you have a gutshot unless there is very little action, in which case you might get to see the turn. Also, you must be extra careful of pairs on the flop or turn, because these cards will be in the playing zone (KKQ is not a board you want to play an open end straight with).

Also a flop like 873 can cause you to overplay. If you think "two overcards and a gutshot" you will probably be in trouble, as your overcards, if hit, will have a poor kicker and might make a straight for someone else.

But playing JT for open enders (or double gutters - AQ8) is highly profitable in the situatuion you describe, is a good thing.

In the alternate situation you bring up, opening in middle or late position with tight players behind you, JT makes an excellent raising hand. Please do not open-call with it in that scenario.

Does this help, or muddy the waters more? I really do like the hand, played with the proper caution and consideration post flop.

BarryT
 
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Sun Dec 15, 2002, 11:48 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
Barry,

Thanks for the response. I guess we are just in simple disagreement on this particular matter. I find JT to be a trap hand. Flopping either pair is usually not good, but it is still difficult to lay down top pair against the endless stream of maniacs that play here in California (As it it just as likely they are holding something that beats a jack kicker as they are to be holding something like a T:s:4:s:, etc.)

I will rarely ever play a JTo unless it is in the blinds or on the button with a family pot, but even then, I usually just muck and go lobby for a few minutes. My only reason for playing a suited JT is that the cardrooms here occassionally will have good payout promotions for royal flushes (yes, I am a dreamer, lol).

I am speaking of general full table strategy and JTo or JTs just doesn't fit well into my repatoire. I mean if I sense weakness on a LP player and feel I can isolate and bet them out post flop, I will often 3 bet with ANY hand ranging from 63s to J8o (if JT happens to be one of those hands, so be it, it is only by chance).

Thanks for your comments and, yes, don't we all love making the nuts???

Dan
 
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JTo - Sun Dec 15, 2002, 02:00 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Hi. Fan: Yup, we will disagree. But who said anything about top pair? This is such a vulnerable holding that you should be able to release it easily if there is any opposing action.

Think about whether you feel badly about mucking a hand that turns out to be a winner. If that really bothers you, you are probably playing many mediocre holding too long. It is OK to throw away top pair in a multiway pot if you feel you are trailing or if the board or the action makes you think you are an underdog.

If you can't get off top (or middle) pair in those citcumstances, then yes, JTo can be a trap. Just a suggestion that it maght be your play and not the hand's fault.

BarryT
 
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Sun Dec 15, 2002, 08:15 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Actually, my dislike of the hand isn't really because of top pair concerns. Why I brought it up is beyond me. I hate JT, because it flops way too many draws that often don't get there. I think it is the biggest trap hand out there along with QT and QJ.

Dan
 
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Sun Dec 15, 2002, 08:57 PM
(#7)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryT
There are two circumstances when JT is good. One of them is exactly the situation you stated. You are in late position and several players have limped. You are getting a very good price to flop a draw, which is exactly what you want with JT. You hope to flop an open end straight draw, which you will make just under 1/3 of the time. Yes, this is certainly the minority of the time, but the pot is going to be large enough to pay you a handsome profit when you make your hand. Remember, every straight using JT is the nut straight. I love making the nuts.
Assuming less than 1/3 = 30%. The draw hits about 30% of the time as well (slightly better for JTs only when you can have str8 & flush draws together), so you are about 10:1 against getting paid off with the hand not counting the miracle 2 pr and boats.

Draws are a "know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em" proposition. Good post flop players, a group to which I hope to join, should be able to make a profit with them. Otherwise they are chip bleeders. IMO, of course.
 
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Mon Dec 16, 2002, 08:58 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Quote:
Good post flop players, a group to which I hope to join, should be able to make a profit with them.
Dan, I think this is fighting talk :lol:
 
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 04:14 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Quote:
In the alternate situation you bring up, opening in middle or late position with tight players behind you, JT makes an excellent raising hand. Please do not open-call with it in that scenario.
Will somebody please explain this open limping stuff to me? I know that it happens, and I use it when I play, I just don't understand the logic behind it. It seems like you will be dominated way too often by anyone that calls.
 

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