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Old
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Can anyone comment on this? - Tue Dec 17, 2002, 12:14 AM
(#1)
Deleted user
in a $50 1k added nlhe tourn the following hand occured.

My Stack= 13K My POS= M Blinds =150/300

My starting cards=TT

All fold to me i raise $450 to $750

Button calls (stack= approx9k)
SB Calls(Stack =7k)

FLOP: 6s 8h 9s

SB Bets $1750
I raise All In (Ithink small chance he has set, But put him on Flush draw)
Button Folds
SB calls and is all in

Cards turn over SB has As 4s

Turn: Js

River: Kd

As you can see I lost this hand, which is fine

My question is did I play correctly, should i have just called his raise
knowing he is on a draw and if i see the turn card before risking my stack i fold the turn. Should I have just re-raised to try and get the draw out but not risk to much? Was his call in SB a valid call to my raise? Should my initial raise been more in my pos?

My thinking after the flop was I'm ahead in the hand get my money in try to force out the draw.

If anyone knows out of 100 how many of these hands will I win?

thief 21
 
Old
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Tue Dec 17, 2002, 12:42 AM
(#2)
Deleted user
most players in a live tourney will not play for all their chips CALLING a drawing hand...if they decide to go for the all in with a draw, it is usually going to be a check raise all in. simply put, most people here don't give a rats a$$ about how they play, they will take ludicrous chances and you happened to get him by one of them...it gets old after awhile, you'll be used to it soon enough here. dont beat yourself up about getting it all in with the best of it. if somebody flops a draw here against you, more times than not, they will get there. the pso standard.

d
 
Old
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Tue Dec 17, 2002, 02:02 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
you definitely dont want to much action preflop from other players yet to act, especially lonely aces coming in. i would guess that there are antes at this stage of the tourny, so i think your raise is rather small. i would have went with a 1200 minimum raise. makes them think a little more about playing the low ace or the suited ace.

other than the original raise, you did exactly what you needed to do to take the hand down there, or play against a draw for all their chips. they hit and that is just part of the game. keep putting it in with the best of it!!!!!!
 
Old
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My thoughts - Tue Dec 17, 2002, 02:14 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
Quote:
My Stack= 13K My POS= M Blinds =150/300
My starting cards=TT
All fold to me i raise $450 to $750
You raised the Pot (450), and that "should" have told the A4s you had a pair. And he probably should have folded. But, early in the tourneys, when the money is very deep, bad players will call small %s of their stacks with no pot-odds to do so. They do this for a number of reasons: they are inexperienced, "it's only a small piece of my stack", they think they know more then TJ or Ciuffone, or Caro, etc. With TT, you really don't want to see a flop early, do you? If you raise the pot 3xBB, 900, making it 1200 for the button to go and 1050 for the SB to go, I'd like to think the SB would fold the A4s.

Quote:
FLOP: 6s 8h 9s
SB Bets $1750
I raise All In (Ithink small chance he has set, But put him on Flush draw)
He just raised Pot! To me that means he's trying to stop the flush draw. That he either has a pair bigger then 9s, top pair A kicker, two pair, or trips. You either fold your tens now, or call. But i don't think you put him on a flush draw, and you certainly don't push all-in. I would probably fold at that point in your situation. You still have $12,250 and plenty of time left.

In retrospect, his post-flop bet could be looked at as a bluff. But his call of your subsequent all-in is a terrible, terrible play by him and completely irresponsible. He should have folded becuase he had no odds to do that. And he got lucky. Very lucky. He has a 9/47 & 9/46 chance of hitting the flush: 39% of the time. So he had no business doing that. Some people may say that "well on his last $4650 he called with there was pot-odds to call for his last $4650"....this is nonsense. A "self fullfilling" prophecy: of only looking at what's in front of me now.

Do me a favour, PM me and tell me who this was. I think I have an idea, but just want to confirm.
 
Old
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Re: My thoughts - Tue Dec 17, 2002, 08:25 AM
(#5)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Quote:
My Stack= 13K My POS= M Blinds =150/300
My starting cards=TT
All fold to me i raise $450 to $750
You raised the Pot (450), and that "should" have told the A4s you had a pair.
The PSO 10k structure has $50 antes at this blind level. Assuming a full table that means the pot has $500 antes, $150 SB & $300 BB for $950. A pot sized raise is now $1250 (since you add in the call to the pot). A 1 & 1/2 BB bet is a come play with me bet, pure and simple as it is giving callers ~4:1 odds. A small or middle pair wanting to flop a set or a big pair semi-slow-playing and trying to build a pot are the hands I'd expect to see from this bet, although AKs to JTs wouldn't be a surprise depending on the opponent.

After the button and SB call the pot has $3350. Th SB's 1/2 pot bet is a feeler to see where is flush is and build a pot in case it hits. A flush draw is 1.86:1 against so this cash game play is not incorrect from a pure math view. Pushing a nut-flush draw with weak support may not be considered optimal tourney strategy however.

A $1750 bet gives our hero a pot of $5100 when he decides to go all-in with an overpair. His nemesis has committed ~25% of his stack to the pot so they call and gets lucky. Assuming they correctly read our hero for an overpair that is not AA they have 12 outs to win (9 flush cards and 3 bullets) They are a 1.22:1 dog getting just over 2:1 odds. Our hero's call makes $6850 and his nemesis has $6500 of the raise covered.

Our hero made a small raise pre-flop with a good hand than can be hard to play. His nemesis played mathematically correct at every stage. I'd be interested in seeing Sir Noodles thoughts on this hand.

This would have been a great hand to submit for Hand Analysis since that feature is now back in operation.
 
Old
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Tue Dec 17, 2002, 12:36 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Generally, you should usually have raised the pot size preflop. After you didn't, I would have probably folded TT on the flop, but I'm a rock.

A lot of players will bet a flush draw there for some reason, especially with that bet size, but I doubt they fold should you move-in. Because of your raise size preflop, you could easily be against JJ, or QQ in this spot. You will likely either be buried or taking a race. You are also in the middle of the bettor and button, (which actually indicates the SB does not have a big hand on those stack ratios and action), but the button could also have hit this flop hard depending on type of player. Not a close situation and a clear fold in my current fishy view.

Quote:
He should have folded becuase he had no odds to do that.
The over card doesn't count?
 
Old
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Tue Dec 17, 2002, 01:08 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Joe said:
Quote:
The PSO 10k structure has $50 antes at this blind level. Assuming a full table that means the pot has $500 antes, $150 SB & $300 BB for $950.
Theif didn't mention the antes, and I didn't (obviously) check the levels to see if there were antes. Given that you are correct about that (and I'm sure you are!), that makes my previous analysis irrelevent to this situation.

That additional $500 in the pot at the beggining makes all the difference in the world, in this particular issue.

At the time the SB plays there is $2450 in the pot ($500 antes {assuming full table of 10}, $450 blinds, $750 from Thief, $750 from button). The original pre-flop call by SB with A4s of $600 (he'd already put in $150 as the sb, only needed $600 to complete) to see the flop on a pot of $2450 is financially sound cause he has the nut flush and will hit his flush 1/4 time. After the SB call the pot has $3050 in it. SBs bet of $1750 post flop can still be looked at a a small bluff/feeler.

That particular amount bet by the sb (slightly more then half the pot) is interesting. At that point there is $4800 in the pot, and the sb has ~$4450 left. You decide to push all-in, in effect making the pot $9250. He gets the pot odds of 2.1/1 on his last $4450. If he puts you on a set (all things considered your best possible hand, no way he puts you on 10,7 or 7,5) he has 9 outs, and is a 1.86/1 dog. If he puts you on nines or a bigger pair below AA, then he has 12 outs, and is a 1.22/1 dog. I would stand by Joe's analysis that the A4s player played mathematically correct by calling pre-flop and calling all-in at the end. You would have to look at his $1750 one of two ways: he tried to bluff you out, or, he knew his odds and bet that amount to get more money into the pot-probably hoping both you and the button would call.

The bottom line of all this is: you bet way too small pre-flop. You needed to bet at least pot preflop.
 
Old
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Tue Dec 17, 2002, 04:53 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Guys I first of all want to thank you for your excellent responses as I am not as educated as you all on pot odds and so forth which is why I posted the hand. Shane who was the button in this case emailed me his opinons which were simular to yours that my pre flop raise was to small. His cards were 33 which is why he called the raise but folded the flop. I tried to copy the hand for hand analysis but was to slow sorry. But shane might have the hand number as he said in his email he kept notes on the hand.

My thoughts and questions to your responses are:

I have been trying to practice some of the advice given to me in my beginners thread(bluffing & stealing?)

at the time of this hand there were 53 players left out of a field of 81
the antes were indeed $50 but i believe I was at a short table maybe 7 players. I only raised $450 because I was in Middle Position I'm thinking that TT is not the greatest hand so if someone behind me comes over top big I can release the hand and not lose to much. I guess this is the wrong thought process. I was trying to be aggressive given the short table i'm told pairs go up in value as a starting hand. Yet at the same time carefull not to blow my money because there was still alot of poker to be played.

Once I saw the flop and he bet big my thoughts having played this player before and having notes that he likes to over bet flush draws at times or try and steal with small pairs while on SB or BB. I figured this: If he nailed the flop he would check to me because I raised pre flop then re-raise me or let me keep betting if he knew he had my beat in order to maximize his profit. This said and obviously a mistake I had forgotten about the hand behind me figured I had him since he only called my initial raise and the SB had bet after the flop. I thought and was right that at this point in the hand I was ahead so, Put all my money in. Shane I know is a good player if he is behind he will fold, the other opponent i Thought 2 Things; 1) Will fold his draw hand (if it is) and not risk going all in at this point. or 2) Will call hope to get lucky and if my hand holds then great if I lose i still have approx 3-4K left to try and double up with later. If i was at risk of exiting the tournament at that point I would have no doubt not gone all in.

I am not trying to defend my play I want the constructive critisism its the only thing that will improve my game. Just giving my thought process to you all for debate and opinion.

As I learn and practice these to me at least advanced techniques I'm sure I will encounter many of these questionably plays by myself and I thank You all for your advice and comments.

Thief 21
 
Old
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Tue Dec 17, 2002, 06:54 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmuzzey
you definitely dont want to much action preflop from other players yet to act, especially lonely aces coming in. i would guess that there are antes at this stage of the tourny, so i think your raise is rather small. i would have went with a 1200 minimum raise. makes them think a little more about playing the low ace or the suited ace.
Jay,

While I agree with your suggestion, if a weaker player will call the raise to 750, they'll have no qualms over calling a raise to 1200, with the money deep, on the premise that they're there to gamble. IMO, they're not giving this situation any thought at all.

Alan
 
Old
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pp's - Tue Dec 17, 2002, 07:16 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Hi,

A slight digression on your subject. Can the more experienced players give their opinions on how I (generally) play medium sized pp's (up to jj).
When the blinds are small I flat call and hope the flop favours me or sets me up for the trap i.e. trips with 1 or 2 overcards.
Also no point in trying to steal when blinds are miniscule with the added risk of a call/reraise meaning a possible gamble of 500 chips to win 100, then having to fold to re-raise.
Later in game with blinds getting chunky, I then try to buy the pot, as I feel the risk of 1 or 2 players after me having a bigger pair worth the gamble with a good pot to be stole pre-flop.
Like most my theories, they are purley down to a situation and are irrevellant to who I'm up against, as I've given up trying to "read" people on the internet (the pokerfaces are too good).

Thanks for your help

Zeb
 
Old
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Tue Dec 17, 2002, 08:14 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Theif said:
Quote:
I only raised $450 because I was in Middle Position I'm thinking that TT is not the greatest hand so if someone behind me comes over top big I can release the hand and not lose to much. I guess this is the wrong thought process. I was trying to be aggressive given the short table i'm told pairs go up in value as a starting hand. Yet at the same time carefull not to blow my money because there was still alot of poker to be played.
I think your thinking process above is correct Theif, but I think you'll need to play those mid-pairs a little more aggresively then you did. The $450 raise in that situation was just a bit too small. Here's the rub on mid pairs, and Zebediah has alluded to it in his post after yours: THEY ARE TOUGH TO PLAY. You cannot play them weak-tight. On deep money, you might limp and hope to flop a set; on shallow money you want this over pre-flop, most of the time. You must understand the table dynamics of your current table, and if you are going to play them you must play them aggresively. Prefereably, because you are going to improve to a set only ~12% of the time on the flop, you will want to end this pre-flop. So you are going to have to bet enough to make this happen, based upon the table dynamics, and still allowing yourself enough room to be able to let the hand go preflop if someone comes over the top of you and you think they have a bigger pair.

To play them in that situation, you are going to need to make a decision that you are willing to play them for 'x' dollars preflop (where 'x' is whatever raise you put in: pot, etc.), and that if "so-and-sos" come over the top I'll fold them. There will instances where, depending on the player, that you will come back over the top of some people because they are weak-tight and they will fold (assuming they don't have AA, KK, AKs), and these will be strictly based on your read/notes of them.

Depraved said:
Quote:
if a weaker player will call the raise to 750, they'll have no qualms over calling a raise to 1200, with the money deep, on the premise that they're there to gamble. IMO, they're not giving this situation any thought at all.
Until about 5 days ago, I hadn't played with you much Alan. But we seem to be at the same table almost every tourny the last 5 days. And after what we've seen (today included...lol) I'm leaning toward your view on this.......
 

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