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Experienced player stuck near the bubble.

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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:08 PM
(#101)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
raise size here is heavy-handed. Std is to 2.5x to 3x plus another for the caller, so 350-400. 450's too much.

When they re-raise, INSTANT JAM!

J7s guy gets a nice green ATM label, but the QT guy IF he thinks he has live cards, since they're the shortest stack, that call's not horrible. I wouldn't make the call, but it's nowhere near as bad as the J7s guy.
I had given them with AK or similar and thought if I was correct in my read them having the only card I am worried about and cancel the opportunity they have of hitting a good spot to reraise instead of jam it. I wasmi l was miles off though
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:18 PM
(#102)
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If you want to be continually making deeper runs in tourneys, you need to learn how to be a short-stack ninja. Managing these spots doesn't come up in cash games because everyone is normally 100bb+ deep, so until you learn this type of tournament thinking... the tourney regs will have an advantage over you.

Stack management when you get to 30bb or lower in a tournament is critical. We can't be calling along or trying to peel flops. These are the spots where we need to be aggressive and put our stack to use (either by shoving or restealing) or opening, then getting it in on a favorable flop if we're on the larger end of this stack-size range.

In smaller stack tourneys (sng's are a great tool for learning this), we not only need to look at our stack size in terms of bb's, but even more-so, how our stack fares against the other stacks at the tables. In these types of spots, we could easily be the table chip leader.. and have 10bb or under. In these types of spots, we need to re-evaluate our shove/call ranges based on the opp's stack sizes, not just the number of bb's (due to ICM considerations). You'll have to be a TON tighter when someone else is in the pot in front of you.

In these spots, we need to play much tighter than we normally would, but when we do play a hand, we must be aggressive. Passive play on a short-stack in a tourney is a longterm loser.


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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:22 PM
(#103)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil da cat View Post
I had given them with AK or similar and thought if I was correct in my read them having the only card I am worried about and cancel the opportunity they have of hitting a good spot to reraise instead of jam it. I wasmi l was miles off though
the problem with the raise sizing here though is a key as we need to make ALL of our bets and raises standard or we end up turning our hand face-up to an observant player. If you continually make it 2.5x or 3x.. then all of a sudden make it 4.5x, it will set off every single alarm in the building to any player that has a clue.
Uneducated players bet according to their hand strength.. big bet = big hand, small bet = marginal hand (that's why they're so easy to beat).

If we make the same standard raise sizing, the opp won't know if we have KK, AK, 33, 89s or total air.


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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:38 PM
(#104)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
(facepalm)... tell me I didn't see this correctly. NEVER open limp. It happens in cash games, you immediately get labeled a clueless fish if you do so in a tourney. If a hand isn't strong enough to raise with and we're first into the pot... then muck it.
Being UTG+1, we can open 66 here and raise to 150. Granted it's the rock bottom of our opening range, but it IS in it.

On the flop, with this being a 2-bet pot preflop, I'm leading here. If it had been a 3-bet pot, I check/raise, but in a 2-bet pot where the flop can easily miss, I'm leading as the opp will float most of their overcard combos to the board (most of their range).

On the turn, when the opp makes it 340, 900 is on the small end, but ok... I'd have made it about 1k. What we CANNOT do after this is to make if 4719. This bet pot-commits not only us as we only have 9419 behind, but we need to look at the effective stack (the opp). This bet absolutely pot-commits them.. so if they're pot-committed, we do NOT want to allow them to call and not put the rest of their chips in.. so this is a mandatory shove.
With the small pairs you are right it is engrained in me to get into a flop cheaply with the intent if it hits you are gonna get paid big.

Again with having hit the flop, I am checking with the intent to reraise. If I had missed my set with that flop I am leading to make them pay for the overcards.
On the turn after the opp has pretty much pot committed themselves just outside it I don't see a way I am folding after the turn missed the draws and want to make them pay for the draw.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:44 PM
(#105)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil da cat View Post
Again with having hit the flop, I am checking with the intent to reraise. If I had missed my set with that flop I am leading to make them pay for the overcards.
On the turn after the opp has pretty much pot committed themselves just outside it I don't see a way I am folding after the turn missed the draws and want to make them pay for the draw.
On the flop, we can't check/raise if we're not sure the opp will bet.. and since this board totally misses their range, they should check here the overwhelming majority of the time (which is why a lead in a 2-bet pot is better). If it's a 3-bet pot, then the opp's range is stronger, so they're more likely to bet, so that's why in a 3-bet pot, a c/r is the best option.

If we miss the flop, we check and fold to any bet where we're not priced in for our 2 outs. Leading when we miss is a huge leak as the limp says we have a marginal hand.. so the opp should raise us with just about their entire range.. and we can't call, so we just leak off whatever we bet.

On the turn.. WE know the opp is pot-committed.. but they may not know that. Due to it, we do not want to let them leave chips behind.. that potentially costs us value.


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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:44 PM
(#106)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
If you want to be continually making deeper runs in tourneys, you need to learn how to be a short-stack ninja. Managing these spots doesn't come up in cash games because everyone is normally 100bb+ deep, so until you learn this type of tournament thinking... the tourney regs will have an advantage over you.

Stack management when you get to 30bb or lower in a tournament is critical. We can't be calling along or trying to peel flops. These are the spots where we need to be aggressive and put our stack to use (either by shoving or restealing) or opening, then getting it in on a favorable flop if we're on the larger end of this stack-size range.

In smaller stack tourneys (sng's are a great tool for learning this), we not only need to look at our stack size in terms of bb's, but even more-so, how our stack fares against the other stacks at the tables. In these types of spots, we could easily be the table chip leader.. and have 10bb or under. In these types of spots, we need to re-evaluate our shove/call ranges based on the opp's stack sizes, not just the number of bb's (due to ICM considerations). You'll have to be a TON tighter when someone else is in the pot in front of you.

In these spots, we need to play much tighter than we normally would, but when we do play a hand, we must be aggressive. Passive play on a short-stack in a tourney is a longterm loser.

When I started this thread it was mainly because of being on the wrong side of the pushing with 1010 jj or AQ/AK when in the position you last mentioned.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:46 PM
(#107)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil da cat View Post
When I started this thread it was mainly because of being on the wrong side of the pushing with 1010 jj or AQ/AK when in the position you last mentioned.
those were different.. in those hands we had a range disadvantage when we pushed.

We want to do it when we have a range advantage over the opps.


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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:51 PM
(#108)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
On the flop, we can't check/raise if we're not sure the opp will bet.. and since this board totally misses their range, they should check here the overwhelming majority of the time (which is why a lead in a 2-bet pot is better). If it's a 3-bet pot, then the opp's range is stronger, so they're more likely to bet, so that's why in a 3-bet pot, a c/r is the best option.

If we miss the flop, we check and fold to any bet where we're not priced in for our 2 outs. Leading when we miss is a huge leak as the limp says we have a marginal hand.. so the opp should raise us with just about their entire range.. and we can't call, so we just leak off whatever we bet.

On the turn.. WE know the opp is pot-committed.. but they may not know that. Due to it, we do not want to let them leave chips behind.. that potentially costs us value.
If I had 66 and there was any higher then a 7 or 8 I am not leading - just on that flop I would be leading.
If the opp doesn't know they are pot committed wouldn't that suggest they don't better then to draw to the nut flush also? Or is this just a hit you are going to have to take?
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:55 PM
(#109)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil da cat View Post
If I had 66 and there was any higher then a 7 or 8 I am not leading - just on that flop I would be leading.
If the opp doesn't know they are pot committed wouldn't that suggest they don't better then to draw to the nut flush also? Or is this just a hit you are going to have to take?
If we give them the wrong odds to draw to the nut flush... then yes, we're gonna lose a given % of the time.. but we'll make $$ longterm.


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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:03 PM
(#110)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
So on a recap you want to see just folding the lower pairs if outside the range.
Also just value betting with the trips for an overall long term gain as apposed to the short term.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:08 PM
(#111)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil da cat View Post
So on a recap you want to see just folding the lower pairs if outside the range.
Also just value betting with the trips for an overall long term gain as apposed to the short term.
Yeah. On lower stack sizes, while we'd like to play the small pairs, it's just not profitable in a lot of situations (of course it'll drive you nuts, because that's when you're going to get them dealt to you)

and yes, unless we're sure that the opp will bet, it's better to value bet sets than to risk the opp checking behind and hitting a draw on us.


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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:12 PM
(#112)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Yeah. On lower stack sizes, while we'd like to play the small pairs, it's just not profitable in a lot of situations (of course it'll drive you nuts, because that's when you're going to get them dealt to you)

and yes, unless we're sure that the opp will bet, it's better to value bet sets than to risk the opp checking behind and hitting a draw on us.
Just folded 22 and guess what hit on the flop? LOL
I understand it though.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:32 PM
(#113)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
This call ok given the blinds? I was waiting for anything connected, suited or above 9 high to push with with being so low on BBs.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:37 PM
(#114)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil da cat View Post
This call ok given the blinds? I was waiting for anything connected, suited or above 9 high to push with with being so low on BBs.
for just over 5bb against an UTG raiser in the lojack, here's the call range: 44+ A9s+ ATo+ KQs

66 is in the range, so it's a call.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:43 PM
(#115)
evil da cat's Avatar
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Posts: 107
Thought so just wanted to check against being tighter on the higher blinds but with 5BB insta called.

I am getting killed on the school pass freeroll event. people pushing with 9-2 off and so forth. The irony is pretty amusing though.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 05:32 PM
(#116)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
Hows this for being saved by the board! Let me cash 250 places higher on a very boring and forgettable tourney.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 05:55 PM
(#117)
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check or shove the turn (I'm checking until the river then shoving). The abnormal small bet (that makes no sense due to our stack size)... won't get called by a real player. A shove could though.. because it then looks like a steal.


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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 05:59 PM
(#118)
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Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
I put the min in so if they hadn't caught up and had two overs it would hopefully bring them along also and as many as possible.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 06:06 PM
(#119)
evil da cat's Avatar
Since: Sep 2017
Posts: 107
And I have tried before with such a board representing the same but without it and got called by A and king high.
 
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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 06:20 PM
(#120)
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Those min bets are value losers made by fishy players... you might get away with those at a cash table or in a tourney that only has fish at your table, but they're killers in tourneys with reasonable players.


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