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"It" Happens

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"It" Happens - Sun Dec 22, 2002, 12:47 PM
(#1)
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Well, “it” happened. The unlikely “it,” the improbable “it,” the unwanted “it.” The hide-the-crazy-aunt-in–the-attic “it.”

A player joins PSO at the last minute, wins his way in through a small last-chance event, then wins the Big One.

Another player gets in through the same process and posts and folds his way to third. Hardly the exciting year-end event we had all built ourselves up for, and one we had all eagerly anticipated.

Let’s look at these two players: (First let me say that I am sure you two are great guys, that you may have wonderful families, that you may even volunteer at the homeless shelter on Thanksgiving. I don’t know. Neither of you has taken the time to fill out a profile.)

The winner joined December 18th and played only 6 events. Third place joined December 2 and played in 19 events. An average cumulative of 50.56%. One of them had a cumulative below 50%. Neither of them had won an event at PSO prior to the Big One.

Lets look at their play:

Third place, I did not see any of his play. The Reason? Well, he got to the final table with $1.7 million, but had to go to work. He had not been in the school long enough to even know how long this event might last.

First place, how do I put this? Every time I saw him make plays, he made fundamental tournament errors. Not small errors, but huge groaning, stomach wrenching, monster errors. Something 4-6 months at Poker School would have likely cured him of.

Neither of them had been in school long enough to improve their game. They may both go on to become great players, I don’t know.

I do want to ask this:

--Is this who we want representing PSO?
--Is this who we want sitting at a major event, wearing a cap with Poker School Online emblazoned on it?
--Is this who we want telling others at the WSOP/WPO/WPF, “Yeah, I got here through Poker School Online. Here’s how you do it: Join on December 18th and play a bingo tournament, you just might win.”


This is a school, a Poker School. I do not think last night’s results reflect what the members and Mark or Tina want the school to be.


I hope Mark changes the Big One next year. Maybe make it a two-tier structure. With two tournaments held on two consecutive days. One for qualifiers, and one for annual members. Have only 100-200 qualifiers, make it tough to get in, pay out top 9-18 places. For the annual members’ tournament, everyone gets in; pay only the top 3-10.

It could still be structured where you could advertise up to $100,000 in prizes and still not be a budget buster. I understand the marketing pull of that magic amount. I also know that PSO is like any other business and has a budget it must meet to survive.

But I hope I never again witness what I saw last night.


Randy Glover


PS Congrats to Freddieboy, Lion, Rio Rita, and Andrew, TomHawk, and Scarz.. And tough one tw41, the bubble is no fun.


PSS TomHawks filled out a profile after the writing of this and after winning the Big One II. Congratulations. I do mean that. Take what I have said here as a way to improve the school, not as a personal put down to you.


PSSS Please read, “I Love This Place,” to put this post in context.
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 01:19 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
Im right there with ya.

At this point, its hard to voice our opinion without it being interpreted as sour grapes, so its probably best I keep my mouth shut. Youve done as good a job of expressing my feelings as I could have.

I do have to say, every year, there is an unknown, who, through some stretch of skill combined with large amounts of luck, makes the final 2 tables of the WSOP after winning a sat and then a super sat.

But then again, Ive never seen anyone at a major go on Post and Fold at the final table to take third.

Congrats to everyone involved!

My jam has soured.
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 01:22 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipman

My jam has soured.
OH NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 01:55 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
Randy, sorry, but this is way off the mark.

Tom didn't play the 'poker school' way but please let us not be fooled that this is the temple of poker.

I think he made some amazingly good plays, and it's crazy to put it all down to luck.......every player that won sponsorship was lucky, but luck on it's own won't do it.

If the moves he made were not understood, does this mean they were bad?

If the school is about learning/improving .....then don't dismiss what you don't understand.

also.....scarz had 3x the stack of 2nd place........he must have been doing something right.
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 02:14 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Clay Knight said:
Quote:
If the moves he made were not understood, does this mean they were bad?
Then have Tom explain them, cause i'm talking to some great players who think that three of his plays at the final table were atrociously bad. If he can explain them such that his logic is at least understandable (if not undeniable), then I'll suck back what I've said and written about them, and apologize. If not, I'll continue to believe what is continuing to be reinforced by some knowledgable people: they were terribly bad amatuerish plays that he got incredibly lucky on.

In addition, Randy hit it on the head regarding how long they've been in the school, and representing the school. Do you really think that having been here 5 days prior to winning this event makes Tom a "representative" of what the school can offer to improve your game? Or that in some way that situation enhances or grows Mark's mission statement for the school? I don't think so.

Nothing against Tom or Scarz. As Randy said they are probably fine people with nice families, etc, and I wish them well. I just don't think it's the best situation for the school to have this happen.

And before someone even goes to the "whiner" nonsense in response to me, bag it! Either argue the points, add something important tangentially or stfu.
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 02:31 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
BRUNO I could not have said it better myself.

Bad Plays!

I would love to hear his reasoning about when he called Freddie!
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 02:32 PM
(#7)
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CLay Knight said:

Quote:
If the school is about learning/improving .....then don't dismiss what you don't understand.
I know what I saw Clay. And trust me, "I Understand."

I could list the errors, but I do not want to take anything else away from his victory. I posted this, not to criticize the guy, but because I felt that the school could improve the way they do the Big One and still meet its memberships goals.

And you must have missed some of the plays I saw.

cya on the tables Clay


Randy
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 02:43 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Amen, Randy.

After a nasty early exit, I spent hours cruising the tables and watching the play, at least till the crash.

What I saw was the semi-random carnage that you'll get in an 'unmentionable' freeroll with added money. Sorry, but that's what I saw. Maybe I missed a lot of good stuff, but it bore little resemblance to PSO.

So be it. No arguments here. That's the system and you pay your money and play how you like. That's bound to happen as long as the sponsorship money is weighted so heavily towards Big One. So - a thought - if anyone at PSO cares about encouraging consistent 'good' or 'thoughtful' play then increase the monthly league sponsorship and cut down on Big One sponsorship. I'm sure it could be balanced so that PSO don't over-commit their money.

As a matter of interest, how much has actually been paid out in monthly money to the long-term league grinders, compared to the thousands paid out last night?

cheers
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 02:44 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Just my two cents worth if it is worth anything. I said the same thing last year, and I'll say it again, IMHO I believe that all players have to be a school member 3 months prior to this event, to even qualify to play in it. I also believe a person should not be able to join for a three month stint, and be able to qualify for this event. IMHO it should have to be for example, advertised (TAKE OUT A 1 YEAR MEMBERSHIP, THREE MONTHS BEFORE THIS EVENT, AND YOU CAN ENTER A TOURNAMENT THAT WILL QUALIFY YOU TO GO TO THE WSOP". I think that way you at least can represent the PSO in a way that you are all talking about. Something like that anyways.

For what it's worth.

babe60 :wink:
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 02:51 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
bruno, not every 'good' player has the same view

I don't..............nuff said
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 02:55 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
It is because of this Randy that I refuse to be a part of something that does not take the time and effort to respect the people that keep this thing going. I purchased an annual membership 3 months ago and am done with Poker School. I am not leaving angry but instead deciding to take what I feel I can offer the poker world to another place. So many things have happened that have helped me to come to this decision that I need not list them all here. I guess what I would like to say the most is thank you for being a poker pal and thank you for putting it like it is my friend. I will be a the WPO and if they will let me, my money goes on our fearless leader going out in the first 2 hours of the tournament. Enjoyed it!

chino
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 02:56 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
huh? whats going on?
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 03:05 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreams32097
huh? whats going on?
I think it might be one of those "jam" and "spreading" things ... Guava may be involved. 8O :lol: :wink:
 
Old
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"It" happens every day - Sun Dec 22, 2002, 03:05 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
Do you truly believe that this was the first time someone has "walked in off the street" and won a poker tournament and that person wasn't know to the regulars and the "In Crowd"?...Please....

I don't know either of the gentlemen , nor have I had my ass handed to me yet by either of them in a "tournament" here (it's only a matter of time until that happens). All I know is they started with $10,000 in tournament chips also and they finished 1st and 3rd and I finished 98th.

I have no room to critique anyone's decisions in this game. So what...I am thinking that I will make another futile effort next year.

But.....just because one of the Poker School Locker Room Lawyers didn't win doesn't make the tournament invalid.
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 03:21 PM
(#15)
Deleted user
In any major money event where the winner takes home 25-50% of the total prize pool, whether it be poker, bowling, or the lottery (boy those three recreational activities have a lot in common, don't they geezer), etc., history shows when a mediocre/non-expert wins or places high in the event, entries go up. When the "pros" win or dominate the money positions time after time, entries stagnate and eventually drop.

From a marketing standpoint, is PSO better served by having an expert player like freddie representing us in a big event or by having an apparent novice carrying the flag?

If the goal is to attract new PSO members with the "see, you too can win big at PSO even if you are not a great poker player" than the latter is the way to go. IF the goal is to produce real world champions, then of course you want the former.

RG said it all very well, and I concur with everything he said. A lot of play at the final 3 tables was "donkey play." It was just flat out bad. Does it happen in B & M events? Yes. Does it work every once in awhile? Yes. Does that make it good play? NO!

When I see these types of plays in cash games, I just repeat to myself, "these people hate money, you will eventually get it." In a tournament, that isn't the case because the donkey can bust you out and then give it to someone else. Sometimes, the donkey does not give it to anyone else and cashes a big check. When that happens, I say "great win, seat open." The donkey will inevitably spread his lottery winnings throughout the poker economy, hopefully at a table near you.

As far as the actual final table last night, Scarz dead 1.7 million stack dramatically changed the dynamics of that table. Scarz was in the BB when Tom had the button, and that was a huge, huge edge. Plus, with Scarz on the button when Freddie had the BB, Tom and Lion could attack at will with no fear that the big stack would come over the top of them. Scarz stack should have been removed when he left for work (I still can't believe he left). It put Rio and Freddie at an INCREDIBLE disadvantage, and gave Tom and Lion a huge advantage.

As for the crash, at least oneplayer benefitted enormously, and that was Andrew who got a free pass in the BB on the first hand back from the crash when he had put 8K of his 23K stack in and everyone folded to him, giving him a free double up! He parlayed that into a 900K stack and a high finish (which is some feat, well-done), but still, if not for the crash someone would have put him to the test in that BB and he may very well have busted.

To quote my buddy Bruno, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 03:31 PM
(#16)
Deleted user
As for the crash, at least oneplayer benefitted enormously, and that was Andrew who got a free pass in the BB on the first hand back from the crash when he had put 8K of his 23K stack in and everyone folded to him, giving him a free double up! He parlayed that into a 900K stack and a high finish (which is some feat, well-done), but still, if not for the crash someone would have put him to the test in that BB and he may very well have busted.

with rounds costing 20K+ andrew had more of a disadvantage than an advantage we wasted 15 minutes waiting for players and alot of hands at that level i too had about 24k stack and hit time for so long that the blinds had already gone up by the time they got round to me
when they had just gone up before the crash.

any advantage andrew gained by having played 2 bb handswas lost by the waiting and i have to say well done to andrew for turning his small stack into a good finish congrats to andrew (ps i think the dealer gave you my cards after the crash)
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 04:58 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruno
And before someone even goes to the "whiner" nonsense in response to me, bag it! Either argue the points, add something important tangentially or stfu.
Woohoo, that's the spirit!!

Have you been taking lessons from me ?
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 05:08 PM
(#18)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by apryllshowers
RG said it all very well, and I concur with everything he said. A lot of play at the final 3 tables was "donkey play." It was just flat out bad.
Geez, I think I am insulted, Apryll you slut.
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 05:08 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Knight
bruno, not every 'good' player has the same view

I don't..............nuff said
I'm sure there's a logical explanation for that somewhere
 
Old
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Sun Dec 22, 2002, 05:18 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
Reading some posts and replies by people who I would like to believe are excellent players plus long time members of PSO, it is obvious that some believe they should have extra privileges or a divine right to win.

I just can't see where being an annual member or paying monthly dues for a year equates to being the only PSO members that should win the Big One here at the school. The statements that there should be a annual members only event or that only those who have been members for 90days + is further evidence that some want a private club. A private club where Mark puts up 100k in possible prizes and only they have access to win those prizes. Instead of asking Mark for special tournaments or membership requirements, why not ask Mark to program a certain number of winning hands only for these same privileged members.

Every day on poker tables around the world, the best player at the table may not win, or lose to the worst player, if you don't believe me just ask Phil Hellmuth.

When you drew your seat in yesterday's Big One, whatever happened in the past ceased to exist, your school ranking, how many months you have been a member, how many previous tournaments you have won, whatever your league standings, none of this mattered when the Big One started. The only things that mattered from this point on are, your playing skill at the moment, the cards you got and how you played them, and LUCK! NO ONE is assured of a top ten finish or a win, even if they played their absolute BEST. The ONLY way the top players could be assured of a win or top finish, would be unlimited rebuys
or reloads of the 10k chips and eventually skill and the odds would finally kick in. Maybe this is the format you should be crying for, "annual members" get 12 $10k reloads, or you get the number of months you have been a member = number of $10k reloads.

Regarding the skill of those who won or accomplished a top finish, they Won or finished well, congratulate them and MOVE ON. How well do the winners represent the school, frankly if I am not one of the winners I really don't care. Actually the winners represent the school very well. As promised "anyone" who put up a monthly fee and qualified for a seat in the Big One had a chance win, that is what is advertised and that is what happened.

Finally analyzing the play of another player with objective criticism, especially if you are a participant in the contest may be difficult. As an example, John Juanda considered one of the top players currently in the world. I played in a tournament with John this past year, we sat next to each other for 4 hours playing. John told me I played perfectly except for the hand that cut his stack in half, and then a few hands later I put him out. Rather than relate the details, the hand that cut John's stack in half, was strategic because we were about to go to break, and I was not going to rebuy……. I had to have a win if possible and was determined to play my cards if I had anything at all. Had John known this he may have played his hand differently, just calling me all the way down instead of raising. I accepted John's comments on my play and didn't reveal why I chose to call his flop bet. There is no doubt that John is and always will be the superior player. Also that he is more than capable of providing accurate criticism of another players poker play. But does that mean John is always right or always understands all the underlying motives or thinking? NO, and no one else is capable too. Can objective criticism explain why great players holding AA loose all-in bets against a weak player with hits a 2 or 3 card out on the river. IT HAPPENS, that is the game, that is poker, and that WILL NOT CHANGE…….

Finally, my thoughts on Last Chance Tourneys
 

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