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Do not want called

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Do not want called - Thu Dec 26, 2002, 07:36 AM
(#1)
Deleted user
Early in real $$$$ tourney, blinds are 50/100, I am UTG and dealt KK.

I make it 200 to play and button calls.

Flop is J27 rainbow and I want out of this hand so I move all-in. Button folds and asks why would I bet 2000 to win 550?

I don't like committing my chips utg like that, but I do not want called. Of course if he flopped a set, I am finished. He has me out chipped 2-1 and I did not want to give him any reason to call.

Suggestions/comments please?

James G
 
Old
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Thu Dec 26, 2002, 08:36 AM
(#2)
Deleted user
First thought is that I would have raised more. Early in the tourney with deep money I would raise about 3 times the Big Blind (make it 400 to go). If no callers, then that is ok. If the button calls, then I begin the mental KK chant (No Ace, NO Ace, No Ace) and see the flop. Then pot is 950 and I go all-in.

With your play of a small raise, I am a little surprised there were not more callers. I think this is actually a very good flop for you (J-2-7 rainbow) No Ace, no flush draw, maybe a gut-shot strait, highly unlikey for a 2-pair, and a face card that may have made him a second best hand (like A-J, K-J, Q-J, J-10) Why do you want out now?

Early in tourny and this person has you out-chipped 2-1, then he must have made an early double up. Did he pick off a kamikazee? or trap someone with trips?

You have bad position and are facing a big stack, however, I would have bet the pot or so and then see what happens, An all-in move be him would be scarey, but I would call. A call by opponent, means I would probably go all-in on the turn.

James: Would you post again and tell us how he doubled up? This may have influenced your thinking on this hand.

Shane aka Jeff
 
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Re: Do not want called - Thu Dec 26, 2002, 11:05 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by James G
Early in real $$$$ tourney, blinds are 50/100, I am UTG and dealt KK.

I make it 200 to play and button calls.
In this typical situation, I prefer a raise to four times the big blind, where the money is still relatively deep. Were your stack say, 900, then move in, since a competent opponent who plays with you would surely set you in himself if your raise were the 4x mentioned above
and you could not fold to a reraise. Keep the initiative in your hands.

[=quote"James G"]Flop is J27 rainbow and I want out of this hand so I move all-in. Button folds and asks why would I bet 2000 to win 550?

I don't like committing my chips utg like that, but I do not want called. Of course if he flopped a set, I am finished. He has me out chipped 2-1 and I did not want to give him any reason to call.[/quote]

This flop is ideal for your hand, and I'd much prefer, if you're going to overbet the pot, to make it about 700 here. This is a stuation where you likely want a call, and if he calls again, you'll most likely move in on the turn.

Given the play I often observe in NL tournies, your concerns about
letting people hang around so they can catch that miracle card are understandable, but you can't fear ghosts. Aggressive, though not maniacal, play is what gets the job done in the long-term. You want weak-playing opponents to make those calls with small and middle pocket pairs; sometimes you get burnt, though rather more often, it will be you stacking those lovely piles of chips.

Alan
 
Old
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Thu Dec 26, 2002, 02:00 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
i think you could have gotten away with a pot size raise on the flop
you actaully want him to call with AJ then get it all in on the turn if its not an ace (which its odds on not to be)
my thinking is
550 raise into a 550 pot gives you 1100 in the pot 1650 if he calls and you still have 1450 left on turn NOW is when you want him to commit all his stack on a big dog or fold (unless the turn became a dangerous card)

if your stack was 1750 then it would be advisable to go all in.
 
Old
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Thu Dec 26, 2002, 05:47 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
To expand a little on this hand, I was trapping with a small raise hoping someone would reraise behind me. Although I do not normally make this type of play, there was a lot of raising and reraising going on so I changed my pace a little.

I was "table move boy", moving like every ten minutes or so. I didn't see how he accumated his chips. The table was aggressive with lots of raises being reraised or called.

In hindsight I feel a pot size bet could have won the pot on the flop, but if he calls me, I have invested half my stack and on the turn I have no chip power against him. In fact, wouldn't it be correct for him to call and all-in bet on the turn? I would be betting T1500 (all-in) making the pot T3000. If he has T4000+ left, isn't it proper for him to call T1500 even if he has the worse of it?

This is what confuses me the most. Yes, it was a good flop and if I already know that my chips are getting in there no matter what, then why not make it wrong for him to call me?

I need help! LOL

James G
 
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Thu Dec 26, 2002, 06:14 PM
(#6)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
If the button has AJ, A7 or A2 they are chasing 5 outs. Any other A (except AA of course) is only 3 outs. Any pair is two outs if they haven't made a set on the flop.

The best case they have 5 outs and are almost a 4:1 dog to make by the river. A pot bet is too steep a price for them to call post-flop. And if they do call you can still make another pot bet on the turn when the 5 outer is an 8:1 dog.
 
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Fri Dec 27, 2002, 12:01 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Quote:
Flop is J27 rainbow and I want out of this hand so I move all-in. Button folds and asks why would I bet 2000 to win 550?
The reason this is generally a mistake is that usually any hand that you beat will fold and any hand that beats you will call. You do not give your opponent a chance to make a mistake and double you through. Usually best not to move-in if it is overbetting pot 3X or more.

Quote:
In hindsight I feel a pot size bet could have won the pot on the flop, but if he calls me, I have invested half my stack and on the turn I have no chip power against him. In fact, wouldn't it be correct for him to call and all-in bet on the turn? I would be betting T1500 (all-in) making the pot T3000. If he has T4000+ left, isn't it proper for him to call T1500 even if he has the worse of it?
Well, if you just bet the full pot, then a good player will know that they should usually either move-in or fold in response to this bet. This is because a general principal of big-bet play is that we do not call and leave as much in the middle as there is left to bet.

Quote:
This is what confuses me the most. Yes, it was a good flop and if I already know that my chips are getting in there no matter what, then why not make it wrong for him to call me?
Because it is unlikely that your opponent will make a mistake and double you through, assuming they are sane. Betting pot gives them that opportunity, as like I said they should usually either move-in or fold on that depth of money. If they just call, then usually move-in on turn regardless, against most opponents.

A possible exception to movng all-in on turn regardless, could be if you know that player is good, and is aware of the principle. In that case, maybe they are trapping with a big hand and flat called because they think you may just have AK and will fold to all-in on flop but will carry the bluff through on turn, or maybe they are putting a play on you, depending on psychology of moment etc. It's probably unlikely though. I'm so far out of the loop at the moment, I am not sure.
 
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Re: Do not want called - Sun Dec 29, 2002, 08:28 AM
(#8)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by James G
Early in real $$$$ tourney, blinds are 50/100, I am UTG and dealt KK.

I make it 200 to play and button calls.
I really hate that one bet raise particulary with QQ or KK, bear in mind that you are only about 2:1 to Ax. The BB has near pot odds to call with any2 and given the implied odds when someone has an overpair and are likely to put the rest of their stack in wihout hitting anything it's almost an automatic call.

If I have you pegged as a big pair small raiser I'll call with any2 and worse still if you have KK QQ and check an Ace on the flop i'll probably bet the pot with 7 high heads up. If you have Aces you'll let me know.

Further discussion in a similar vein is at
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/pok...pic.php?t=3317

On the plus side I like the bet on that flop - looks like AK that hasn't hit or 99 or TT - I might call with the J or 7 here.
 
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Noodles- Clarifiction Please. - Mon Dec 30, 2002, 05:50 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
"Well, if you just bet the full pot, then a good player will know that they should usually either move-in or fold in response to this bet. This is because a general principal of big-bet play is that we do not call and leave as much in the middle as there is left to bet."

Could you amplify/explain the "general principle?

Approximate situation as stated (assuming the Pot Bet on the flop)!

James G bets $550. Pot now $1100 - $1650 if called

James G: $1450 remaining ($750 committed to pot),

Opponent: $ $4,200 before calling Flop bet. (estimated based on "he had me outchipped 2:1 at the beginning").

Are you saying "that if O just calls, making $1650 pot w. JamesG having $1450 - that that's a mistake?"
- so O either pops it to put JamesG all-in or folds?

Which player, having how many chips, makes it a mistake?

Thanks.
 
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Re: Noodles- Clarifiction Please. - Tue Dec 31, 2002, 09:15 AM
(#10)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Bat 07
Could you amplify/explain the "general principle?

Approximate situation as stated (assuming the Pot Bet on the flop)!

James G bets $550. Pot now $1100 - $1650 if called

James G: $1450 remaining ($750 committed to pot),

Opponent: $ $4,200 before calling Flop bet. (estimated based on "he had me outchipped 2:1 at the beginning").

Are you saying "that if O just calls, making $1650 pot w. JamesG having $1450 - that that's a mistake?"
It's a horrible mistake if he is unsure and may fold to an all-in bet by JamesG on future rounds. Something I have seen being habitually done at PSO, and at paysites even.

Quote:
- so O either pops it to put JamesG all-in or folds?
Usually, yes. But there can probably be exceptions.

For example, if O has a hand that they are unsure of, maybe it is best, maybe not. Then they should either move-in or fold. If they have a draw they want to play, they should move-in or fold. Calling and then facing an all-in bet on next round is not a very good idea.

The exceptions are probably concerned with situations where you want to get all of opponents stack, and you think they will fold if you move-in now - probably through a combination of the opponents knowledge, (or lack of), of the principle, their characteristics, psychology of moment, and how weak/strong they are. Maybe other exceptions could arise from situations where you are first to act on next round. However, generally, all-in or fold.

I broke the principle the other day in a pokerstars freeroll. I raised preflop. Bet the flop. Then someone bet into me on the turn headsup, after the turn gave me a set. If I called, the pot would have been the same size as the stacks, so I should have either moved-in or folded. However, I thought opponent was weak and would fold if I moved-in. I also didn't think they were aware of the princple, so wouldn't think I was moving in because I couldn't just call. I also thought they would follow the bluff through on river so I would bust them. So I called and busted them on river. They had nothing.

Basically, do not call if you may fold on a later round if opponent moves-in. As for the exceptions, if there are any, I am not sure. I am way out of the loop and haven't given it any thought for ages. Flaws and bad habits have crept into my game/thinking, and I think the subject of possible exceptions may be one area that is affected by this. My thinking certainly feels fuzzy on the subject.

Quote:
Which player, having how many chips, makes it a mistake?
Headsup, the shortest stack is the relevant one.
 

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