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how wrong is to call...or to

Old
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how wrong is to call...or to - Fri Dec 27, 2002, 09:32 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
how wrong is to call...or to fold here.....


friday night game

200 buy in - no limit holdem

107 players started - 70 players stil in

average stack - 15.000 - 1h 10m of game

just arrived to the table and had never played with this new player


Starting hand #12087989

mick16 starts with $13,975
HAMMER1 starts with $11,500
pokerpagekev starts with $10,200
"spades" starts with $14,000
ASTRO starts with $24,975
demonknees starts with $7,625
delta234 starts with $22,475
MikeFox starts with $12,850
BillyTheKidd starts with $5,875
Reck starts with $24,825

ASTRO has the dealer button

>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<

"spades" dealt down Ah Jc
mick16 posts the ante $50
HAMMER1 posts the ante $50
pokerpagekev posts the ante $50
"spades" posts the ante $50
ASTRO posts the ante $50
demonknees posts the ante $50
delta234 posts the ante $50
MikeFox posts the ante $50
BillyTheKidd posts the ante $50
Reck posts the ante $50
demonknees posts the small blind $200
delta234 posts the big blind $400
MikeFox folds
BillyTheKidd folds
Reck folds

mick16 raises $400 to $800

HAMMER1 folds
pokerpagekev folds

"spades" calls $800

ASTRO folds

demonknees raises $6,775 to $7,575 and is all-in

delta234 folds
mick16 folds

"spades" called time
"spades" called time
"spades" called time
"spades" called time
"spades" called time


my question here is what to do ??

do i call here or should i fold ?? :?:

outcome of this hand soon after your comments !!!!

spades : 8)
 
Old
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Fri Dec 27, 2002, 11:41 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
Fold like it's your job.
 
Old
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Fri Dec 27, 2002, 11:45 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
why would you want to call?
 
Old
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Sat Dec 28, 2002, 12:52 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
ahh I remember I had AKs here; did I really overbet the pot like this? A little overzealous I guess. As I recall I had gotten of to a decent start in the tourney and went on a bad run (cards and play) and felt like I needed to take this pot to get me back to the starting amount (my post flop play was getting uncharacteristically tepid). Going all in here would not be my normal move (allthough I see players here going all in with AK all the time, maybe because this hand is the hardest to get away from if you miss the flop).

If its any consolation I went out in the tourney by calling an AK all in bet, and my hand was significantly worse then AJ. DOn't know what I was thinking as I knew I was beat.

You'll get me next time I suspect.

DK
 
Old
Default
and the answer is... - Sat Dec 28, 2002, 01:29 AM
(#5)
Deleted user
i screw up my stack...

"spades" calls $6,775
demonknees shows cards Ad Kd
"spades" shows cards Jc Ah
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ 7s Kh 6s ]
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ 2s ]
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ 8h ]
demonknees wins $16,850
demonknees won with a pair of kings

wonder if that was a really bad call,
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 01:39 AM
(#6)
Deleted user
the all in raise was correct as if you had made a pot raise you would not have been able to make a pot sized raise on flop



calling with the AJ was a bad play spades as there was no hand he could raise with you were ahead of the 6.7 k would have been nice sitting in your stack rather than calling with the worst of it hoping to get lucky and knock out a player the money at that point is shallow but still deep enough to fold weak aces.
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 02:27 AM
(#7)
Deleted user
It appears from the play I've watched recently (and I've been paying more attention lately, as my game shows..lol) people REALLY overvalue AQ, AJ, AT, for that matter any Ace when the money is still too deep to be playing those hands for raises. Granted they ALL go up in value when the money gets shallow, although I still believe there is much to much making and calling big raises with Ax around here. The sad part is, most times these people end up getting rewarded with these Ace/rag hands by making two pair...A3, A4, A5 etc. and winning a big pot, reinforcing the bad play it started with. I think they should of course get the pot..after all they won it, but perhaps PSO could program in some sort of electrical shock that would jolt them just a lil to let them know that they got lucky and the play was not the optimim one to make...lol.

8O

'Goddess
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 03:38 AM
(#8)
Deleted user
Spades,

A-J is a doubtful hand in many spots, and I'd much rather raise with the hand than stand a raise with it; what if you call, it's heads-up, and your opponent bets into you when the flop comes with an ace or jack? You really don't know where you are in the hand, and that's a potentially expensive place to be.

Alan
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 03:39 AM
(#9)
Deleted user
Spades,

A-J is a doubtful hand in many spots, and I'd much rather raise with the hand than stand a raise with it; what if you call, it's heads-up, and your opponent bets into you when the flop comes with an ace or jack? You really don't know where you are in the hand, and that's a potentially expensive place to be.

Alan
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 08:10 AM
(#10)
Deleted user
yup...i think it was a bad call...

i dont have any problem in folding A whatever..if i see i dont get the odds or that im beat...not the first time i fold AK, AQ or any other preflop...that is not the hard part for me

in this hand however i felt i had to call (i didnt knew nothing about the player !)

thnx for your help guys

spades 8)
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 01:36 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonknees
ahh I remember I had AKs here; did I really overbet the pot like this? A little overzealous I guess. As I recall I had gotten of to a decent start in the tourney and went on a bad run (cards and play) and felt like I needed to take this pot to get me back to the starting amount (my post flop play was getting uncharacteristically tepid). Going all in here would not be my normal move (allthough I see players here going all in with AK all the time, maybe because this hand is the hardest to get away from if you miss the flop).

If its any consolation I went out in the tourney by calling an AK all in bet, and my hand was significantly worse then AJ. DOn't know what I was thinking as I knew I was beat.

You'll get me next time I suspect.
At only 600 to call, on those stack sizes with AK, you have options. Either re-raising or just calling. I think, with a combination of your good position relative to raiser on the flop and the 600 price to call, I would generally have flat called and then gone for the check-raise all-in on the flop should I hit a pair. If you only had about 5k, then all-in preflop would have been best.

As for the AJo. calling the original raise is usually not a good idea. As for whether to call the all-in, it depends on whether the player that moved-in is just as likely to have worse aces in their range of hands. If it is heads, I am buried, tails opponent is buried, then call. Otherwise fold. Usually on those stack sizes, a typical player would not move-in on worse aces, so it is generally a fold.
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 04:04 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
Quote:
I would generally have flat called and then gone for the check-raise all-in on the flop should I hit a pair.
Noodles, I like this strategy. I have been using this approach frequently with AK (sometimes with AQ) when I get to act first and there is no need to limit the field. In this case I was slightly "on tilt", when I get like this I tend to get weak-tight. I felt like I had been semi-bluffed off some pots a ocuple of times and I didn't want to let that hapen again. My only problem with the check-raise is that 2 or 3 handed the flop often gets checked through. In this case I would be reluctant to check the flop with the potential straight and flush draws. What do you think of leading with a pot size bet here (or actually an all-in bet with my short stack). I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a potential free card here.

DM
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 08:34 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonknees
My only problem with the check-raise is that 2 or 3 handed the flop often gets checked through. In this case I would be reluctant to check the flop with the potential straight and flush draws. What do you think of leading with a pot size bet here (or actually an all-in bet with my short stack). I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a potential free card here.

DM
Well, in this situation, the reason I would call preflop and go for the check-raise all-in on flop is related to stack sizes and my position relative to the preflop raiser. Usually, the preflop raiser will have a bet at the flop after you check. I am just talking generally. If they are likely to check it round, or only make the minimum bet, then I probably play more committally preflop. If it was an unraised pot preflop then usually bet out and take it from there, as you cannot expect a bet after you check.

Talking generally, the reason your position is so good is because, should you catch the pair, you can check and let the preflop raiser bet, catching the other player in the middle. If it is checked round after you, then it isn't so bad as this means you will usually win pot on next round anyway unless someone was slowplaying a monster. If you miss the flop, and you think others missed it too, then you can bet out, putting the preflop raiser under pressure by putting them in the middle. If you miss and check, and it is checked behind you, then the pot is yours to steal on the turn if it is a blank and neither player are calling stations or slowplaying, as you are the player most likely to have checked a good hand on flop, (because of your position relative to raiser).
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 28, 2002, 10:38 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
I FOLDED A/Qs on that hand.
 
Old
Default
Sun Dec 29, 2002, 09:36 AM
(#15)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodles
Talking generally, the reason your position is so good is because, should you catch the pair, you can check and let the preflop raiser bet, catching the other player in the middle. If it is checked round after you, then it isn't so bad as this means you will usually win pot on next round anyway unless someone was slowplaying a monster. If you miss the flop, and you think others missed it too, then you can bet out, putting the preflop raiser under pressure by putting them in the middle. If you miss and check, and it is checked behind you, then the pot is yours to steal on the turn if it is a blank and neither player are calling stations or slowplaying, as you are the player most likely to have checked a good hand on flop, (because of your position relative to raiser).

What a great forum we have here!!!

Thanks, Den
 
Old
Default
Sun Dec 29, 2002, 09:52 AM
(#16)
Deleted user
Actually, I have spotted something that would change what I would generally do in this situation.

I based my answer on the fact it was only 600 for the SB to call with AK. I missed the fact that it was only a minimum raise and that the pot was around 2400 when it got to the SB. With this much in the pot and a stack of less than 9k, I would probably have moved-in with AK, so I think demonknees was right to do what they did.

With the other 2 players in the hand having around 13k. In order to just call the 600 in the sb with AK and go for check-raise all-in on flop, I would probably either need a stack of 9k+ or the 600 call would need to have been around a pot size rather than minimum raise .
 
Old
Default
Mon Dec 30, 2002, 07:56 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
ASTRO...you saying you fold a AQ to a bb raise preflop ?

just wondering

spades
 
Old
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Mon Dec 30, 2002, 08:01 PM
(#18)
Deleted user
Noodles...

did you call with AK on my position (considering you havent raise the original raiser)

if not what were the hands that you considering for a call to demonknees raise ?'

thnx

spades
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 31, 2002, 08:23 AM
(#19)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by spades
Noodles...

did you call with AK on my position (considering you havent raise the original raiser)
Do I call the SB all-in after flat calling the original raiser with AK? Tough to say. I would need to be aware of the characteristics of the players involved along with the psychology of the moment. It depends on the range of hands I could put a particular player on in that spot. If they are capable of doing it with a lower ace than I call, if not then I fold. In general, if I didn't know the player in that situation, I would lean towards folding probably.
 
Old
Default
Fri Jan 03, 2003, 06:24 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
thats my original tough

never saw demonknees play and i knew he was a new player at pso

i got this strange habit... i tend to "classify" all new players as bad or weak players

so i consider those kind of plays like buying the pot with marginal or very weak hands

most of the time the new players are weak, but some of them are not

normally i check their ranks before i do a call like this one...but i didnt this time (which i regret)

for some reason i had a "feeling" i was ahaed and my call was a good call

after i check demonkness rank i realize i should stay put :evil:

spades 8)
 

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