Home / Community / Forum / Support Area / Poker News /

Overpair to a junk flop

Old
Default
Overpair to a junk flop - Sun Dec 29, 2002, 01:40 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
This seems to be a fairly common situation. You have a PP and the board comes with cards all lower than yours.

Here are three situations:


1) Big One 2: I have JJ UTG. Blinds at $200/$400, antes $50. $1100 dead money. I make it $1200 to go. I have $8000 left after my bet. I get 2 callers (both MP), making the pot $4,700. One player I have no read on, they have $6K after their call; the other would call with AT and up, and has $20K. The flop comes 335 rainbow.



2) $200 NLHE at PSO: QQ one before the button. Blinds at $1,000/$2000, antes $300, making $6K dead money. I have around $23K after my bet. I make it $7K to go. I get 2 callers, the SB and the BB. Both have me out chipped. The SB has $50K, the BB around $30K. The flop comes 665, 56 are spades. Neither are loose players. I have no spades. I bet out $7K. The SB goes all in. He is capable of a tricky play.


3) PSO Freeroll: Blinds $500/$1000, antes $200, making $3500 dead money. I have $7K after posting my SB. I have 77 in the SB. UTG is a Loose player, not quite a maniac, but extremely loose, any Ace.. UTG, who has about $20K, calls. The next player calls, he is an A5 type player, Small PPs… He has $30K. All others fold. Because of the semi-maniac, I only complete the bet, ready to wait fro another opportunity. Maybe I should have pushed in here… Anyway the flop come 236, two spades.



What do you do in each of these situations? Be blunt. I feel like my game sucks lately, so you are not telling me anything I do not know.

Below is what I did and what happened:

1) I went all in to cut off the AQ/AT player. The short stack had PP 33, giving him quads.
2) I thought and thought and thought. I folded, which upon reflection, I concluded was a mistake. I believe the player had AK of spades. He is a good enough player to make an overraise in this situation, as apparently he put me on a weak hand. After the fact he said he had KK, which is the hand of choice for players to say they have when there is no showdown. (BTW, I spoke to this player later and he said he read me for a big Ace and that was why he played it the way he did with his KK. He swears he had the KK.)
3) I went all in on this flop and the loose player had A6, giving him top pair. The other player had 66, giving him a set. The loose player made an Ace on the river anyway and so I was 3rd in this hand…


The common theme here is shallow money, not giving you enough chips to feel out the situation.

Thx for your help on this

Randy
 
Old
Default
Sun Dec 29, 2002, 02:18 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
all very interesting situations. when you raise and get multiple callers, most likely they are either on AK or any pair of JJ or less. it is a tough situation to have a flop of all undercards to your pair. i think you have to bet out at least half the pot, but be careful of the slowplayed aces and kings, and if you get reraised, you have to be willing to fold at certain times. this is the oe area of internet poker that is the most difficult, in my opinion, to deal with. usually, in live play, when someone flops a set or trips or a flush, you can try to get a read, but with no other information, it is very difficult to lay down an overpair. i am not sure how to get away from the hand, at least with the confidence knowing you folded a loser. i know i am going through a rough run of cards lately, so i have been laying down a lot of hands. i have layed down many overpairs in the last couple weeks, and all it has done is make me a target for people to raise. when they are continuosly raising you, there are not many playable hands at all. sooner or later you have to make a stand, and hope you win. i would like to see some other people's opinions on this subject as well........
 
Old
Default
Sun Dec 29, 2002, 02:45 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
in recent weeks i have tried to be more agressive than i used to be
i do not like calling all in even with AA preflop(but i do)
when i have an over pair to the flop i will try to get as many chips in as possible in any way i can if i get called and lose so be it.

if i get called and win hey let the good times roll.

passive play is a loser in long run i have won more pots uncontested with rags because i have been aggresive than i have with big hands.

i remeber also that once you made your bluff and it gets reraised to let it go once you put the chips into a pot they are no longer yours and no need to continue with a bluff once you know other guy aint going anywhere
 
Old
Default
Re: Overpair to a junk flop - Mon Dec 30, 2002, 11:16 AM
(#4)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by rggator
1) Big One 2: I have JJ UTG. Blinds at $200/$400, antes $50. $1100 dead money. I make it $1200 to go. I have $8000 left after my bet. I get 2 callers (both MP), making the pot $4,700. One player I have no read on, they have $6K after their call; the other would call with AT and up, and has $20K. The flop comes 335 rainbow.
I dislike underbetting the pot pre-flop. Make 'em pay thru the nose to beat you and if you bust out, move on. $1100 in the pot means you are playing 5-handed. JJ should be played fast and furious short-handed. Raise the pot ($1500 to $1900). A raise encourages callers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rggator
1) I went all in to cut off the AQ/AT player. The short stack had PP 33, giving him quads.
A short stack isn't going anywhere with a pair. You are doomed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rggator
2) $200 NLHE at PSO: QQ one before the button. Blinds at $1,000/$2000, antes $300, making $6K dead money. I have around $23K after my bet. I make it $7K to go. I get 2 callers, the SB and the BB. Both have me out chipped. The SB has $50K, the BB around $30K. The flop comes 665, 56 are spades. Neither are loose players. I have no spades. I bet out $7K. The SB goes all in. He is capable of a tricky play.
A full table 2 hours into the event the field is down to less that half. You are close to par and close to the 10xBB move it while you can mark. QQ isn't strong enough to slow-play at this stage. A pot raise costs you $10k so either raise the pot or move all-in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rggator
2) I thought and thought and thought. I folded, which upon reflection, I concluded was a mistake. I believe the player had AK of spades. He is a good enough player to make an overraise in this situation, as apparently he put me on a weak hand. After the fact he said he had KK, which is the hand of choice for players to say they have when there is no showdown. (BTW, I spoke to this player later and he said he read me for a big Ace and that was why he played it the way he did with his KK. He swears he had the KK.)
If he had AA or KK you are likely doomed. AK is a flip and they might have folded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rggator
3) PSO Freeroll: Blinds $500/$1000, antes $200, making $3500 dead money. I have $7K after posting my SB. I have 77 in the SB. UTG is a Loose player, not quite a maniac, but extremely loose, any Ace.. UTG, who has about $20K, calls. The next player calls, he is an A5 type player, Small PPs… He has $30K. All others fold. Because of the semi-maniac, I only complete the bet, ready to wait fro another opportunity. Maybe I should have pushed in here… Anyway the flop come 236, two spades.
You are below the 10xBB mark so I beleive it is jam or fold. Based on your read jammit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rggator
3) I went all in on this flop and the loose player had A6, giving him top pair. The other player had 66, giving him a set. The loose player made an Ace on the river anyway and so I was 3rd in this hand…
You were doomed. Poker is tough.

In the final analysis there are only two ways to get busted out af a tournament. First you went in with the best of it or even and they drew out on you. Second you went in with the worst of it and didn't improve. The former should out number the latter. Knowing your play I am convinced they do. You are probably a bit more survival focused than I am. :wink:
 
Old
Default
Mon Dec 30, 2002, 04:21 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
OK...I'll open myself up to some criticism here but:

1) I hate poker. And JJ is one of the reasons why! Going all-in gives away your hand.....BUT you've gotta think you are ahead at that point a make them pay to draw out. (I'd bite it here everytime ).

2) I like taking the free card here, especially against a tricky player. If a Q comes on the turn then it's Trick-or-Treat! Only the A or K stand to cause you grief but if one of them nasty guys show on the turn and betting ensures then it is an EASY muck. And of course you may be up against a naked 6 and if you give your opponent a chance to protect it with a check-raise you can bet he will.
If I bet out on the flop after it is checked to me, then I already know that I intent to call any raise! Why make a bet that can open you up to being bullied out of the pot. I'm scared of being trapped here but if I try and take that pot on the flop you can bet I'm gonna stick around and pray for the lady!

3) Check. If I would have had a gutshot straight draw to go with my overpair...... then All-In. But here I play weak and concede the hand if any pressure is applied. Too many players with two overcards are gonna chip away at this pot and even if you know that to be the case, your opponent will catch his card far too often to get involved any further.
Pre-flop all-in may have been the way to go IF you are sure estimate it will get you heads up and you are ready to go watch Oprah.....(er....live with the fact you are gambling). I see from the results that I'd be watching Oprah along with you in this case.

My head hurts, as always gotta factor in table dynamics....stage of the tournament....and above all else make sure Oprah is on in case you get relicated to the couch!

Later,
Wendell
 
Old
Default
Another view - Mon Dec 30, 2002, 05:10 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
HAND 1: I think the all-in bet here is not good.

- a flop of 335 is not a flop of 3 rags! It's not 8 5 2 or something similar.
- It makes hands like A 3 suited. And a lot of players will even call the "any A" won't they!!

You've got at most 4 outs (jj & 33?) while any KQ, for example, has 6 outs to win.

I play it VERY carefully post flop - and lay down to any significant action!

HAND 2: With QQ in close out and dead money at $6k (about 25% of my stack), I'm going all-in pre-flop!! If they've got KK or AA - tough luck. Anything else - I'm not giving them any sort of odds to draw out on me!

In the actual situation - Same comments about the 6 6 5 flop, except now you've got 2 spades on the board, giving someone a possible additional 9 outs!!

- I'm folding to the all-in bet from the blind! I'm toast to a slow-played KK, AA - or even A 6 os. And I'm drawing thin against A x or Kx suited!! Not worth all my chips at this point!!

- Apparently, in the actual hand, you end up with QQ vs. KK - but at least all the decisions have already been made! If you beat the KK, shame on them for slow-playing!

- I think with KK, the BB should have committed pre-flop! Then you have a "lay-down" decision! Can you make it?
- Again - all-in with QQ in close out is my choice.

HAND 3 - you're relly short stacked with only 3.5 big betss -and a semi-decent hand! I don't mind the "all-in" preflop.

- but I'd try something else. Flat call the pre-flop bet as you did.
- then on any flop - close your eyes and bet all-in! Represent that the 2 3 6 flop hit you!!
- then hope you've got either the best hand or players smart enough to think you do!
 
Old
Default
Re: Overpair to a junk flop - Tue Dec 31, 2002, 09:39 AM
(#7)
Deleted user
Without any more information. My general answers are :

Quote:
Originally Posted by rggator
This seems to be a fairly common situation. You have a PP and the board comes with cards all lower than yours.

Here are three situations:


1) Big One 2: I have JJ UTG. Blinds at $200/$400, antes $50. $1100 dead money. I make it $1200 to go. I have $8000 left after my bet. I get 2 callers (both MP), making the pot $4,700. One player I have no read on, they have $6K after their call; the other would call with AT and up, and has $20K. The flop comes 335 rainbow.
All-in.

In fact, all-in regardless of your hand.


Quote:
2) $200 NLHE at PSO: QQ one before the button. Blinds at $1,000/$2000, antes $300, making $6K dead money. I have around $23K after my bet. I make it $7K to go. I get 2 callers, the SB and the BB. Both have me out chipped. The SB has $50K, the BB around $30K. The flop comes 665, 56 are spades. Neither are loose players. I have no spades. I bet out $7K. The SB goes all in. He is capable of a tricky play.
I am a little confused as to whether you had 23k after your raise or before it. I also hate you 7k bet on flop unless inducing an all-in from opponent. Regardles of how you got into this situation, I think you have to call.


Quote:
3) PSO Freeroll: Blinds $500/$1000, antes $200, making $3500 dead money. I have $7K after posting my SB. I have 77 in the SB. UTG is a Loose player, not quite a maniac, but extremely loose, any Ace.. UTG, who has about $20K, calls. The next player calls, he is an A5 type player, Small PPs… He has $30K. All others fold. Because of the semi-maniac, I only complete the bet, ready to wait fro another opportunity. Maybe I should have pushed in here… Anyway the flop come 236, two spades.
All-in preflop or automatic all-in on flop if an ace doesn't hit.

Quote:
1) I went all in to cut off the AQ/AT player. The short stack had PP 33, giving him quads.
The short stack is a fish of the highest order in that case.

Quote:
2) I thought and thought and thought. I folded, which upon reflection, I concluded was a mistake. I believe the player had AK of spades. He is a good enough player to make an overraise in this situation, as apparently he put me on a weak hand. After the fact he said he had KK, which is the hand of choice for players to say they have when there is no showdown. (BTW, I spoke to this player later and he said he read me for a big Ace and that was why he played it the way he did with his KK. He swears he had the KK.)
How you can show such false weakness with your bet and then fold is horrible. Your bet was inducing an all-in if they have anything. I don't like the KK play if that is what they had.

Quote:
The common theme here is shallow money, not giving you enough chips to feel out the situation.
Shallow money and also poor play from opponents. Getting beats like this is nature of the shallow money game. No wiggle room.
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 31, 2002, 09:53 AM
(#8)
Deleted user
Quote:
2) I like taking the free card here, especially against a tricky player. If a Q comes on the turn then it's Trick-or-Treat! Only the A or K stand to cause you grief but if one of them nasty guys show on the turn and betting ensures then it is an EASY muck. And of course you may be up against a naked 6 and if you give your opponent a chance to protect it with a check-raise you can bet he will.
If I bet out on the flop after it is checked to me, then I already know that I intent to call any raise! Why make a bet that can open you up to being bullied out of the pot. I'm scared of being trapped here but if I try and take that pot on the flop you can bet I'm gonna stick around and pray for the lady!
Small point for anyone reading this. If you try to take the pot on the flop, and get raised all-in, then the reason you stick around is not because you think you have been trapped and you pray for the queen. It is because of the element of doubt that you are beat. On shallow money, if you get trapped, you get trapped. Nature of the game with no wiggle room. Don't let the possibility of one hand scare you into weak play when you beat so many other possible hands they may have.
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 31, 2002, 08:19 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Ok, here's my take (and of course not the "solution" - just a way to play)

---------------------
1.
UTG is tough, and JJ is one of the toughest hands to play.
If it was later in the tourn., I'd make a sizeable raise(or all-in if a raise is a chunk of my stack). Then you want to get the antes and blinds, and win if big Ace or smaller pp calls (and get lucky to AA,KK,QQ).
At this time though, I'd just call the $400 and see what action I get. If noone raises, I see the flop cheap and look for no overcards. A jack and I could hit the Jackpot. I think it's too bad of position to put in a 3x-4x BB raise. A big Ace will call, and unless you flop a jack you're still outta there with an overcard on the flop. You've invested $1200 to $1600 in a bad situation. And what do you do if re-raised? Even if the re-raiser just has overcards(not AA,KK,QQ) do you want to go out on a coin-flip?
All-in is worse. You could get called by the overpair, or worse by a AK maniac. Sure you'll win a little more than half the time, but it's too early to risk going out on that slim of an edge. I like the 4-1 risks for all my chips when not later in the tourn. With the all-in, you'll probably only win the $1100, and lose all you've got. You say you'd like a couple of $1100 wins to build your stack, but I think with the bad position you're too vulnerable. If this were not a tournament you can play these closer edges, but this is and as TJ says "you can't go back into your pocket for more chips".

I think position is the key in this hand. Late position after you've see the strength of most, put in that raise. If you had limpers before you I doubt they're slow-playing AA, KK, or QQ. Limping with big ace here is not a good play, so maybe you're up against underpairs. If they're foolish and call with an underpair, you're a big favorite(if they hit their set your toast, but you can't win 'em all). A raise before you and you're best to give up this hand(again overcards or overpair). Yes, some could raise with TT or 99, but not likely until a little later in the tourn.

So, IMO this is a hand for a raise or all-in later in the tourn.(or better position).
---------------------

2.
You've got to go all-in here. No slow-playing QQ. Take the 6k.
AA, KK unlikely in the only 3 hands left after you, you're the favorite to everything else and only "coin-toss" with AK. If non-AK Ace makes the mistake and calls you're a nice favorite, and a call with AK is still a mistake IMO unless holding a large stack. Once you let the other hands in for only $7k, you've let them see if they flop and Ace or King for a cheap price. Would you get any calls for 29K raise by AK? I didn't think so.
In this case(if he's got that AKspades), then the flush draw allowed him to make a move on the pot(and it worked).
----------------------

3.
Since you're short on chips, making a move with 77 here is a good play. Push it all in. How many hands can you wait for something better? The callers have shown weakness, push it all in and either double- or triple- up with a 7 (or no help for non-higher pp), or take all those chips($5500) if they fold. The all-in move also lets you get a 7 on the turn or river, not just on the flop. Also, there is only the BB left to show strength, so you're probably ahead now.
You got tempted by that cheap look at the flop. Hit your set and you're looking real good. But that's a long shot as is have an overpair to the flop. So, most-likely you're folding after the flop.
If you had more chips relative to the blinds(esp. if early in the tourn. where a trap with a flopped set could get you a lot of chips), completing the bet is a good thing to do.
A non-all-in raise is the worst. You've put in a sizable chunk of your stack committing you to the hand without the benefit of making the callers fold most of the time.
In this case, the A6 would defintely fold and the 66 should fold. You let that 66 hit the flop big-time. OK, chances are those callers would not hit that rag flop, and only an overpair is going to get you (and your all-in on flop was the right move at that time).
Like I said, at that time in the tourn. with your stack size be happy with collecting $5500, double- triple-up, or bust out.
------------------------

OK, I know Noodles like to wiggle I think there's very little here. You're just getting youself into trouble where you allow the flop to hit someone or worse bluff you out of the pot.
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 31, 2002, 11:00 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Quote:
1.
UTG is tough, and JJ is one of the toughest hands to play.
If it was later in the tourn., I'd make a sizeable raise(or all-in if a raise is a chunk of my stack). Then you want to get the antes and blinds, and win if big Ace or smaller pp calls (and get lucky to AA,KK,QQ).
At this time though, I'd just call the $400 and see what action I get. If noone raises, I see the flop cheap and look for no overcards. A jack and I could hit the Jackpot. I think it's too bad of position to put in a 3x-4x BB raise. A big Ace will call, and unless you flop a jack you're still outta there with an overcard on the flop. You've invested $1200 to $1600 in a bad situation. And what do you do if re-raised?
My view is that when re-raised usually fold, unless it is all-in and you are getting 2-1 or more, in which case you may or may not call depending on range of hands they could have.

I don't know whether Randall's preflop raise size was ok or whether he should have raised full pot. It would depend on the composition of other stacks at the table. There is too much dead money in the pot, compared to randall's stack, to just limp, in general. Reach out for it and tend to fold if re-raised. If called, then either go all-in on flop regardless or give it up depending on who called and whether they could be slowplaying AA. If they can call there with a number of hands, then all-in regardless on flop.
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 01, 2003, 10:35 AM
(#11)
Deleted user
Great responses all. DocH, Noodles, wstwst, very well thought out. This really cleared up my thinking on these situations.

DocH wrote:

Quote:
In this case, the A6 would defintely fold and the 66 should fold.

This character would not fold. And I unduly let this influence my thinking. I knew about what he had and I thought (incorrectly) that I would bet out if no Ace on the flop.


Thanks again all,


Randy/Randall
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com